opinions about Massad Ayoob
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Sean Smith
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Just out of curiousity, what IS Ayoob's justification for his naughty language, anyway?
Sean Smith
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Huh.
I'm kind of two minds about that. One is that a smart instructor tailors his instruction to his audience; if a reasonable person leaves your class with a bad taste in their mouth, you've generally done something wrong.
The other thought is that we are talking about having to KILL PEOPLE, which ought to be orders of magnitude more offensive than puns involving vaginas, or whatever.
I'm kind of two minds about that. One is that a smart instructor tailors his instruction to his audience; if a reasonable person leaves your class with a bad taste in their mouth, you've generally done something wrong.
The other thought is that we are talking about having to KILL PEOPLE, which ought to be orders of magnitude more offensive than puns involving vaginas, or whatever.
I have taken his classes, the data was good, and his language and jokes were just fill, the first few jokes, and language just got a smile, the direction of the jokes and language was all the same ....I tuned in, collecting the good.... and tuned out, the fill...allot like many conversations of today.
Sean ~
That's my reasoning too, but there's something else.
I think the real issue should be context. In the context of a street encounter, foul language should be neither shocking nor distracting. That's one of the many advantages of doing realistic role play and FOF exercises. Foul language definitely belongs there, because it'll be there in the real life encounters role play is designed to mimic.
While becoming inurred to foul language in the context of a confrontation is a Good Thing, I don't think the foul language has any place in the classroom. The idea of a seminar or lecture is to impart information so that it sticks in students' brains. If, say, 15% of the students are so distracted by the language that they fail to hear the message, then the teacher has failed those students.
But, as I said in my first post, Ayoob puts on a heckuva show. And part of his job at the front of the room is to keep people awake. He does that.
pax
Lawyerman
Member
I am scheduled to attend one of his courses later in the year. I want to see for myself what he's all about. I have made a few judgements, fairly or not about some of his opinions. He worries WAY too much about being sued/prosecuted in my opinion.
Where I live, about the only way you are going to get in trouble for shooting some scumbag is if you do a Bernie Goetz on him and give him a coup de grace as he's face down on the carpet. It's just not a concern, here a man's home is his castle and the juries and DA's for the most part understand the difference between scumbags and citizens. We had a guy last year that shot a burglar in his business, they put him on the 6:00 news as a freaking hero!
At a minimum I believe you can survive either possibility anyway. Millions of people are sued in this country every year, I know, I have sued a couple hundred in my career as a lawyer. It isn't the end of the world in most cases. Secondly, millions of Americans have or will enter the prison system in this country and the vast majority of them live to re emerge into society in some shape or form. So, you CAN survive being sued, you can survive jail. You are much less likely to survive some scumbag who is sticking a pistol in your ear. Fight and win, the rest will take care of itself but at least you will be around to see the outcome in any case.
Where I live, about the only way you are going to get in trouble for shooting some scumbag is if you do a Bernie Goetz on him and give him a coup de grace as he's face down on the carpet. It's just not a concern, here a man's home is his castle and the juries and DA's for the most part understand the difference between scumbags and citizens. We had a guy last year that shot a burglar in his business, they put him on the 6:00 news as a freaking hero!
At a minimum I believe you can survive either possibility anyway. Millions of people are sued in this country every year, I know, I have sued a couple hundred in my career as a lawyer. It isn't the end of the world in most cases. Secondly, millions of Americans have or will enter the prison system in this country and the vast majority of them live to re emerge into society in some shape or form. So, you CAN survive being sued, you can survive jail. You are much less likely to survive some scumbag who is sticking a pistol in your ear. Fight and win, the rest will take care of itself but at least you will be around to see the outcome in any case.
Lawyerman.... I am sure your wise enough, to know...just let him talk, in this class.... specific questions are good...to general and the class gets off base. There is a major difference between wisdom and knowledge, and I am glad the great state of Texas... knows this difference.
One of the things Mas will teach you is that what you just described is a myth. IIRC, the evidence showed that Goetz couldn't have done this. Instead, Goetz talked himself into the story when he heard the police describing him as a cold-hearted killer, etc., and Goetz essentially imagined this was how things went down.
Lawyerman
Member
Well, that's interesting but it doesn't change my opinion. In the Texas Panhandle as long as you don't shoot someone in back of the head while they are face down and half dead your chances of being indicted or sued for an otherwise righteous shooting are about zero.
One of the lawyers in my office is one of the most prominent criminal defense attorneys in this part of the country. He's been on the front cover of Texas Monthly for example-having handled cases of some note. He has practiced for almost 40 years and handled many death penalty cases. Before that he was a "crimebeat" reporter for the local paper and actually went to crime scenes with the cops etc.....Heck, he was Chairman of the Texas Board of Prisons for two years, he knows a modest amount about self defense and the criminal law. He has at least 9 Thunder Ranch Certs on the wall and knows a small amount about weapons craft as well. I have asked him several times for an example of a person from the area who was charged in an otherwise righteous shooting and he can not provide a single example.
If you do stupid things like hang out with dopers, have "relations" with other mens' wives, ride a Honda to a biker bar at 0230 on Pearl Harbor Day where you attempt to burn an American flag, then yes, you may have a problem if you have to shoot someone. But if you use a Browning Hi Power with the magazine safety removed (OH MY GOD!) and empty half a mag into some POS who just entered your place of domicile or accosted you and your lovely wife and kids in the Walmart parking lot with a shiv you haven't got alot to worry about.
One of the lawyers in my office is one of the most prominent criminal defense attorneys in this part of the country. He's been on the front cover of Texas Monthly for example-having handled cases of some note. He has practiced for almost 40 years and handled many death penalty cases. Before that he was a "crimebeat" reporter for the local paper and actually went to crime scenes with the cops etc.....Heck, he was Chairman of the Texas Board of Prisons for two years, he knows a modest amount about self defense and the criminal law. He has at least 9 Thunder Ranch Certs on the wall and knows a small amount about weapons craft as well. I have asked him several times for an example of a person from the area who was charged in an otherwise righteous shooting and he can not provide a single example.
If you do stupid things like hang out with dopers, have "relations" with other mens' wives, ride a Honda to a biker bar at 0230 on Pearl Harbor Day where you attempt to burn an American flag, then yes, you may have a problem if you have to shoot someone. But if you use a Browning Hi Power with the magazine safety removed (OH MY GOD!) and empty half a mag into some POS who just entered your place of domicile or accosted you and your lovely wife and kids in the Walmart parking lot with a shiv you haven't got alot to worry about.
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HankB
Member
I don't know Ayoob personally, having never met him. I believe there was a wealth of excellent information contained in his book In The Gravest Extreme.
On the other hand, I've found some of his advice to be highly questionable - for example, some years back he recommended a particular revolversmith highly, and I found, to my sorrow, that the guy simply didn't merit the accolades Ayoob heaped on him, from both workmanship and business ethics standpoints. (Insert words Art's grammaw wouldn't approve of.)
Ayoob's praise of a well-known boutique ammo brand was, well, interesting . . . more so once it leaked that he was a stakeholder in the company. Hmmm . . . no conflict of interest there.
While he's failed to convince me of the horrible legal dangers of using customized guns or (shudder) handloaded ammo in a rightous shooting, his writings are thought provoking.
On the other hand, I've found some of his advice to be highly questionable - for example, some years back he recommended a particular revolversmith highly, and I found, to my sorrow, that the guy simply didn't merit the accolades Ayoob heaped on him, from both workmanship and business ethics standpoints. (Insert words Art's grammaw wouldn't approve of.)
Ayoob's praise of a well-known boutique ammo brand was, well, interesting . . . more so once it leaked that he was a stakeholder in the company. Hmmm . . . no conflict of interest there.
While he's failed to convince me of the horrible legal dangers of using customized guns or (shudder) handloaded ammo in a rightous shooting, his writings are thought provoking.
Keep in mind...he ALSO writes for gun rags, and giving anyone info, on a smith, or ammo....must be taken lightly. He has opinions, likes and dislikes.... and speaks about them... if it works cool, if not cool.... his basic data, is good...and offers more for YOU to choose between.... options are good !!!!
PeacefulWarrior
Member
He makes all trainers look bad with his use of foul language.....I know it is the language of the street but it has no place in a training enviroment. I don't care how many mags he writes articles for or how many people consider him a guru he needs to wake up and smell the coffe.
getting sued
Lawyerman, Sure getting sued is less of a bother than dying, and less of a bother to you as its your job and you are familiar with the process. But if you take someine who is unfamiliar with being sued and is paying for an attorneys advice at 2 or 3 dollars a minute it might be a big deal. I also think that in the northeast even in new hampshire which is the most freedom oriented state the laws and judicial establishment are tougher on gun owners than in Texas.
Massad Ayoob wrote a case study in which a florida cop was sued because he modified his pistol in some way. I don't remember the details. The deep pockets of the municipality made it worth while to try to get some money.
I may be wrong but I can picture being financially wrecked even though I was in the right.
pete
Lawyerman, Sure getting sued is less of a bother than dying, and less of a bother to you as its your job and you are familiar with the process. But if you take someine who is unfamiliar with being sued and is paying for an attorneys advice at 2 or 3 dollars a minute it might be a big deal. I also think that in the northeast even in new hampshire which is the most freedom oriented state the laws and judicial establishment are tougher on gun owners than in Texas.
Massad Ayoob wrote a case study in which a florida cop was sued because he modified his pistol in some way. I don't remember the details. The deep pockets of the municipality made it worth while to try to get some money.
I may be wrong but I can picture being financially wrecked even though I was in the right.
pete
Texian Pistolero
member
I think that the "overkill" on getting sued has some benefits.
Threatening people's wallets is one sure way to get thier attention, and hopefully discouraging them from doing something very stupid like capping a teenage kid going out the back door with the stereo.
The kid may deserve it, but it is NOT worth the hassle.
Fact is, the prosecutor wants to win, and will use any trick to do so.
I was on a jury where the prosecutor made the following statement,
"If he had not been restrained by his brother in law, who was expertly trained in hand to hand combat by the U.S. Army, the defendant actually WOULD have hurt somebody!"
The brother in law was a COOK at Ft Hood! I happenned to know that the Army spends little or no time teaching hand to gland to 11B, much less cooks!
I chuckled, which got me a dirty look from the judge, but the little old ladies on the jury bought it.
Threatening people's wallets is one sure way to get thier attention, and hopefully discouraging them from doing something very stupid like capping a teenage kid going out the back door with the stereo.
The kid may deserve it, but it is NOT worth the hassle.
Fact is, the prosecutor wants to win, and will use any trick to do so.
I was on a jury where the prosecutor made the following statement,
"If he had not been restrained by his brother in law, who was expertly trained in hand to hand combat by the U.S. Army, the defendant actually WOULD have hurt somebody!"
The brother in law was a COOK at Ft Hood! I happenned to know that the Army spends little or no time teaching hand to gland to 11B, much less cooks!
I chuckled, which got me a dirty look from the judge, but the little old ladies on the jury bought it.
Lawyerman
Member
Again, I don't know about everywhere but in Texas there isn't a whole lot that you stand to lose even if you are sued. I would wager that 90% of the folks on this forum are essentially judgement proof if living in Texas. How's that? In Texas:
1. You can't take someone's homesteaded dwelling to satisfy a civil judgment-their home. Nor can they take your home furnishings including family heirlooms- Property Code S 42.002-1 (You can't take their prepaid burial plots either) The homestead is as follows -if your family lives in the city you can exempt up to 10 acres, if they live in the country you get to exempt up to 200 freaking acres! There are actually cases where people exempted different 1 acre patches up to the 200 acres, funny thing, those 1 acre patches were all surrounding OIL WELLS!
2. They are allowed to keep one vehicle for each adult in the household-whether it's a Rolls Royce or a '72 Gremlin. S 42.oo2-9
3. They can't take your "tools of trade" S 42.002-4 (computers, plumbing equipment, wood working, electricians tools etc.....)
4. They can't take bona fide retirement savings held in a 401k or other similar plan
5. They can't garnish your wages
6. They can't take Jewelry up to 25% of the aggregate of the $60,000 personal property exemption provided for couples-30,000 for singles.
7. You get to keep two firearms (this one would hurt some!)
8. You can keep athletic and sporting equipment including bicycles S 42.002-8
And lastly, the section I love the most!
You get to keep the following animals and forage for their consumption under S42.002-10
1. Two horses, mules or donkeys and a saddle, blanket and bridle for each (Could include Secretariat or other race or breeding horse!)
2. 12 head of cattle (How about a PBR bucking bull worth a cool million?)
3. 60 head of other types of livestock (Emus?)
4. 120 head of fowl
Plus you get to exempt $60,000.00 of "other assets" of your election!
Why do you think Ken Lay and all the other scofflaws reside in Texas? You can't touch them. The guy has a $4 million dollar house and there isn't a freaking thing they can do to it!
Now I know that there are dozens of millionaires on this forum but for the average guy-the one who seems to worry the most, how much do they have beyond that that some boogeyman could get? Dang near nothing I am guessing. Aside from all of that, if you don't have self defense insurance through the NRA (which would cover costs of defense and awards of damages) and carry a pistol you deserve to be sued based on stupidity alone! The legal bogeyman has no clothes-at least in the Lone Star State!
Would it be fun to get sued? No, but then it probably wouldn't be fun to have to shoot someone either. It's not a situation of your making though. Look at it rationally and get on with your life.
1. You can't take someone's homesteaded dwelling to satisfy a civil judgment-their home. Nor can they take your home furnishings including family heirlooms- Property Code S 42.002-1 (You can't take their prepaid burial plots either) The homestead is as follows -if your family lives in the city you can exempt up to 10 acres, if they live in the country you get to exempt up to 200 freaking acres! There are actually cases where people exempted different 1 acre patches up to the 200 acres, funny thing, those 1 acre patches were all surrounding OIL WELLS!
2. They are allowed to keep one vehicle for each adult in the household-whether it's a Rolls Royce or a '72 Gremlin. S 42.oo2-9
3. They can't take your "tools of trade" S 42.002-4 (computers, plumbing equipment, wood working, electricians tools etc.....)
4. They can't take bona fide retirement savings held in a 401k or other similar plan
5. They can't garnish your wages
6. They can't take Jewelry up to 25% of the aggregate of the $60,000 personal property exemption provided for couples-30,000 for singles.
7. You get to keep two firearms (this one would hurt some!)
8. You can keep athletic and sporting equipment including bicycles S 42.002-8
And lastly, the section I love the most!
You get to keep the following animals and forage for their consumption under S42.002-10
1. Two horses, mules or donkeys and a saddle, blanket and bridle for each (Could include Secretariat or other race or breeding horse!)
2. 12 head of cattle (How about a PBR bucking bull worth a cool million?)
3. 60 head of other types of livestock (Emus?)
4. 120 head of fowl
Plus you get to exempt $60,000.00 of "other assets" of your election!
Why do you think Ken Lay and all the other scofflaws reside in Texas? You can't touch them. The guy has a $4 million dollar house and there isn't a freaking thing they can do to it!
Now I know that there are dozens of millionaires on this forum but for the average guy-the one who seems to worry the most, how much do they have beyond that that some boogeyman could get? Dang near nothing I am guessing. Aside from all of that, if you don't have self defense insurance through the NRA (which would cover costs of defense and awards of damages) and carry a pistol you deserve to be sued based on stupidity alone! The legal bogeyman has no clothes-at least in the Lone Star State!
Would it be fun to get sued? No, but then it probably wouldn't be fun to have to shoot someone either. It's not a situation of your making though. Look at it rationally and get on with your life.
I have met Mas, but only know him slightly and have never taken one of his courses. I have read some of his books and magazine articles.
All of us have opinions on different subjects that are probably based on knowledge or experience, although some are simply the product of something we've read or heard.
Mas has a considerable amount of knowledge on the defensive use of firearms, particularly handguns. He also has an extensive background as a expert witness testifying in self-defense shootings. This I think may account for some of his views concerning the legal aftereffects of a shooting and proving justifications. In this area he has "been there and done that." Given this, his opinions should be carefully considered, but not necessarily accepted without question. His voice is one among many. Listen carefully to all of them and then make up your own mind.
All of us have opinions on different subjects that are probably based on knowledge or experience, although some are simply the product of something we've read or heard.
Mas has a considerable amount of knowledge on the defensive use of firearms, particularly handguns. He also has an extensive background as a expert witness testifying in self-defense shootings. This I think may account for some of his views concerning the legal aftereffects of a shooting and proving justifications. In this area he has "been there and done that." Given this, his opinions should be carefully considered, but not necessarily accepted without question. His voice is one among many. Listen carefully to all of them and then make up your own mind.
Lawyerman
Member
Agreed, his knowledge of the dynamics of shootings and status as an expert witness are second to none.
Aguila Blanca
Member
Well, I just want to thank Pax for her review of his class. I was considering signing up for one. However, the fact that when I called over a year ago and was promised an updated schedule that still has not arrived together with this new revelation that he's a guttermouth in class ... I'll find another instructor, thanks just the same.
If I want to hear street talk, I'll take a walk on the street. If I'm paying good money for a class intended to teach me about the legalities of self-defense with a firearm, I expect to be taught in good English, not guttermouth street talk.
If I want to hear street talk, I'll take a walk on the street. If I'm paying good money for a class intended to teach me about the legalities of self-defense with a firearm, I expect to be taught in good English, not guttermouth street talk.
Shawn Dodson
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As someone else already mentioned, I take appropriate bits & pieces and discard the rest.
I have serious concerns about Ayoob's credibility, particularly what appear to be dishonest claims he's published in regard to his expert testimony in Christine Hansen v FBI.
I have serious concerns about Ayoob's credibility, particularly what appear to be dishonest claims he's published in regard to his expert testimony in Christine Hansen v FBI.
Hawkmoon ~
Please don't get me wrong! I think Ayoob's LFI-1 is one of the bestest classes out there. It is jam-packed with information you simply are not going to get anywhere else. Every spare second of the class is positively crammed with useful knowledge, provocative ideas, and simple things you can do right now to protect yourself if you're ever involved in a shooting.
That it comes wrapped up with foul language is unfortunate, but I'd hate to think anyone missed out on the good stuff because of it.
pax
My uncle ordered popovers
from the restaurant's bill of fare.
And, when they were served,
he regarded them with a penetrating stare.
Then he spoke great Words of Wisdom
as he sat there on that chair:
"To eat these things," said my uncle,
"You must exercise great care.
You may swallow down what's solid,
BUT...you must spit out the air!"
And as you partake of the world's bill of fare,
that's darned good advice to follow.
Do a lot of spitting out the hot air.
And be careful what you swallow.
--- Theodor Seuss Geisel
Please don't get me wrong! I think Ayoob's LFI-1 is one of the bestest classes out there. It is jam-packed with information you simply are not going to get anywhere else. Every spare second of the class is positively crammed with useful knowledge, provocative ideas, and simple things you can do right now to protect yourself if you're ever involved in a shooting.
That it comes wrapped up with foul language is unfortunate, but I'd hate to think anyone missed out on the good stuff because of it.
pax
My uncle ordered popovers
from the restaurant's bill of fare.
And, when they were served,
he regarded them with a penetrating stare.
Then he spoke great Words of Wisdom
as he sat there on that chair:
"To eat these things," said my uncle,
"You must exercise great care.
You may swallow down what's solid,
BUT...you must spit out the air!"
And as you partake of the world's bill of fare,
that's darned good advice to follow.
Do a lot of spitting out the hot air.
And be careful what you swallow.
--- Theodor Seuss Geisel
Double Maduro
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I don't always agree with everything he says, but if I am ever charged with a crime or civil liability involving a gun, I want him on my team as an expert witness. At the very least I want him to consult with my attorneys.
DM
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