p712k said:Thanks for the info guys, I am going to tell him a simple bill of sale or the deals off. Just our names, cities of residence and that we are both residents of FL.
And that's all that is needed.
p712k said:Thanks for the info guys, I am going to tell him a simple bill of sale or the deals off. Just our names, cities of residence and that we are both residents of FL.
JLB said:There is a portion of the law called the "Prudent Man Test". It holds that all is required of a person is to do what a prudent man would do under the same circumstances.
That proves MY point about the fake ID, YOU have no way of knowing and NO requirement to prove it's fake or that he is lying etc.
It's not paranoia, it's common sense.
Depends on your perspective, how far do we go with "common sense". If we can save one child or avoid one lawsuit shouldn't we outlaw private sales in the name of common sense?
Know your seller, and know your buyer, or nasty things MAY HAPPEN.
No doubt, the Prudent Man can still run afoul and the foolish one may not....
CT
Yep. But that's not what the seller in the original post wanted, is it?JLB said:I have no "database", and don't want his personal info. He already has my e-mail & phone number, so I'm not that concerned that I'm in his "database", because I highly doubt he has one either.
All that is needed is visual proof of age and residence, and the serial # of the gun on the bill of sale, plus the date we transact business.
That covers us both, and is what a reasonable buyer or seller would expect.
Derek Zeanah said:Yep. But that's not what the seller in the original post wanted, is it?
JLB said:All that is needed is visual proof of age and residence, and the serial # of the gun on the bill of sale, plus the date we transact business.
That covers us both, and is what a reasonable buyer or seller would expect.
JLB said:There is a portion of the law called the "Prudent Man Test". It holds that all is required of a person is to do what a prudent man would do under the same circumstances.
That proves MY point about the fake ID, YOU have no way of knowing and NO requirement to prove it's fake or that he is lying etc.
It's not paranoia, it's common sense.
Depends on your perspective, how far do we go with "common sense". If we can save one child or avoid one lawsuit shouldn't we outlaw private sales in the name of common sense?
Know your seller, and know your buyer, or nasty things MAY HAPPEN.
No doubt, the Prudent Man can still run afoul and the foolish one may not....
CT
CentralTexas said:If you are aware that 100% of the time you cannot tell a persons age by looking, you have failed your "Prudent Man " test.
The residence on a drivers license doesn't mean a person lives there either. All I am saying is these things may make you feel good but in most scenarios aren't worth the effort.
Plaintiff's attorney-"Why didn't you ask the decedent his intentions for the use of the military style assault weapon you sold him"?
Defendant-"Well I asked for his ID and he was a legal buyer"
Plaintiff's attorney-"Did you not realize he had mental issues going back 20 years, drug addiction issues with five assault charges also, how was he a legal buyer?"
If they want to sue you they will, if the Government needs you to be guilty you are....
CT
CT
taliv said:man, i wish i knew someone who committed a felony so i could look at the last digit on their driver's license.
learn something every day...
Ah - noticed your defensiveness and went back and read the thread. Turns out you are the seller. Cool.JLB said:I e-mailed him a suggestion, not a requirement.
Just because I have done business a certain way over the years, does not mean I am not willing to compromise with somebody else, who wishes to do it a different way, as long as we both are comfortable.
His minimum standard is fine with me.
Derek Zeanah said:Ah - noticed your defensiveness and went back and read the thread. Turns out you are the seller. Cool.
I'm not saying "this is how things need to be," I'm just stating what I think is a reasonable intrusion into my life. If I buy a car from you I can understand your desire to make sure I register it in my name in case I do a hit and run or something, and I'll play along and make sure you know all the paperwork has been taken care of. But that doesn't mean I'll let you take a copy of my driver's license, insurance card, and the new paperwork for the automobile -- that's going beyond the "I just wanna be safe" standard.
Same thing here. You're selling me a firearm? I'll point out that I'm not a felon (easy to verify in Florida, as I've pointed out) and that the state thinks I'm responsible enough to carry concealed (meaning I've passed a minimum qualification test and a cursory background check). I'll show you the state documents making this clear, and will pay you with cash or a USPS money order if that's your preference. Doesn't mean I'll sign the money order, but there 'ya go.
And yeah, you can print the PM or e-mail setting up the sale or whatever -- for the most part I don't care. But you don't get to go any further than the "just wanted to make sure you're not a bad dude -- thanks for appeasing my conscience" stage. You want a copy of my driver's license, CCW, and maybe umbrella policy showing I've got $2 million + coverage in case I shoot a "disenfranchised youth" who's breaking into my house at o'dark'thirty (you can't be safe after all -- you could be sued!)? Nope.
You get to verify I'm not a bad dude. Beyond that I'll buy from (or sell to) someone else. I don't keep records of firearm purchases or sales (ownership records are different), and part of this is covering my ass. You might remember the posts of one of our members who was "required" to surrender his AR to the state police during the Maryland Sniper shootings a couple of years back. I don't care to play that game, thanks -- I might or might not have purchased an AR pattern rifle from a private party, it might or might not have sucked, and I might or might not have resold it to buy something I wanted more, or I might or might not have used that acetelene torch to melt the receiver down into that carbon-steel shovel blade over there in a fit of poetic license inverting the phrase "plowshares into swords" in a blissninny mood 3 weeks ago.
That's how I handle firearm purchases, or anything else that might raise someone's eyebrows in the future. It sounds like we won't be buying and selling from each other, and that's OK. We understand where each other is coming from, and that avoids future confusion.
It's also BS. The last number on my licence is 5. I have never committed any misdemeanors nor felonies.JLB said:That is good info to know.
1KPerDay said:It's also BS. The last number on my licence is 5. I have never committed any misdemeanors nor felonies.
Maybe it's different in other states, but it sounds like hogwash to me.
LOL I was going to say something like that but I figured I'd let someone else do it.JLB said:I'm suprised you gave out the last digit of your DL# on the net.
People are watching!
JLB said:That is good info to know.
wdlsguy said:Here is the information the ATF recommends recording on their Personal Firearms Record:
Manufacturer/Importer, Model, Serial Number, Type and Action, Caliber or Gauge, Date Acquired, Cost, Purchase Location (Name and Address). Sounds like a good list for a bill of sale.
If the buyer and seller aren't comfortable exchanging names and addresses maybe they shouldn't be doing business?