Optics on your concealed carry?

[chicharrones]

If the dot isn't there, then the backup iron sights are - and the iron sights are usually better aligned on target due to the user's experience shooting with the red dot.

And that presents a difficult situation if the glass of the red dot is hard to see through.

As others have mentioned, their red dots on carry guns can get dirt, dust, whatever, on the glass.

I didn't really think about that until I've been experimenting with a FN509 Tactical with a red dot lately. Surprising to me was when the glass got dusty and covered with hand prints (from hurried slide racking), I couldn't make out the front sight very well. It was similar to smearing a film of vaseline on the front of the glass.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

And that presents a difficult situation if the glass of the red dot is hard to see through.

As others have mentioned, their red dots on carry guns can get dirt, dust, whatever, on the glass.

I didn't really think about that until I've been experimenting with a FN509 Tactical with a red dot lately. Surprising to me was when the glass got dusty and covered with hand prints (from hurried slide racking), I couldn't make out the front sight very well. It was similar to smearing a film of vaseline on the front of the glass.

That's a double fault (red dot optic failure plus a dirty window), and an unusual and implausible situation.

It's also a maintenance failure in not keeping your equipment clean, lubed, and inspected to ensure it's ready for use before you gear up to go out in the world. This is called a PTU (prior to use) inspection. Do your PTU first and fix anything that's wrong. PTU is a tactical discipline.

 

[Walkalong]

3. Experienced RDS trainers (eg; Correia and Jedi) say it can take hundreds, maybe thousands, of dry fire practice instances to shift gears to the above steps from your deeply embeded front-sight-focus experience.

Took me a couple hundred at most. Shoot two eyes open, focused on the target, let the dot align……..bang. You never focus on the dot when speed is called for.

 

[chicharrones]

That's a double fault (red dot optic failure plus a dirty window), and an unusual and implausible situation.

It's also a maintenance failure in not keeping your equipment clean, lubed, and inspected to ensure it's ready for use before you gear up to go out in the world. This is called a PTU (prior to use) inspection. Do your PTU first and fix anything that's wrong. PTU is a tactical discipline.

PTU certainly is something done at the start of each day. And if I knew a threat was coming at a set time later on, I could do another PTU before an incident were to occur. But I don't know when threats are coming and I've had guns get dirty throughout a day due to whatever I have to do for work, chores, etc.

As much as I like red dots on long arms and handguns, I'm not confident in keeping a red dot on a carry gun in a clean condition throughout a "shift" of carrying that gun. Considering that, changing batteries on a regular basis would be my answer to the dirty glass issue. At least my non-dominant eye could see the target and my dominant eye could pick up the dot to combine the two images into a useful sight picture.

That really would work well for an enclosed red dot. If the backside of the glass got dirty of a non-enclosed red dot . . . well, I need to do some more experimenting.

I'm hashing this out at THR in this thread for my own learning purposes. I've had red dots for years. I've just never had them on carry guns, and now that I have a pair of optic ready handguns, my personal experimentation has begun.

 

[Walkalong]

It's also a maintenance failure in not keeping your equipment clean, lubed, and inspected to ensure it's ready for use before you gear up to go out in the world. This is called a PTU (prior to use) inspection. Do your PTU first and fix anything that's wrong. PTU is a tactical discipline.

Bingo

 

[Nuclear]

I don’t, but I would if I could.

 

[JDeere]

Took me a couple hundred at most. Shoot two eyes open, focused on the target, let the dot align……..bang. You never focus on the dot when speed is called for.

Bingo...Groups tightened up dramatically...

 

[bearcreek]

That's a double fault (red dot optic failure plus a dirty window), and an unusual and implausible situation.

It's also a maintenance failure in not keeping your equipment clean, lubed, and inspected to ensure it's ready for use before you gear up to go out in the world. This is called a PTU (prior to use) inspection. Do your PTU first and fix anything that's wrong. PTU is a tactical discipline

I work in a dusty, dirty environment every day. The sights on my pistol get dusty and dirty too, but the outline is still visible, even when the tritium or fiber optic is not. If I had a red dot on there, there's no reason to presume that it would have less dust on it than the sights do. There's nothing implausible about that. Has nothing to do with maintenance. Not everyone spends their days in a clean office.

 

[Walkalong]

We should all be doing checks on our carry piece, which would include optics if they have them.

Call it maintenance, call it a “PM”, call it a check, call it whatever one likes, but we should be doing it.

 

[bearcreek]

We should all be doing checks on our carry piece, which would include optics if they have them.

Call it maintenance, call it a “PM”, call it a check, call it whatever one likes, but we should be doing it.

Yes we should. How often do you pull your pistol out on a jobsite to do a check?

 

[Walkalong]

Yes we should. How often do you pull your pistol out on a jobsite to do a check?

Lol. We should obviously be doing that before we get on the job site, and the vast majority of us don’t carry on the actual job site.

I’m just saying we should be doing checks on our weapons, and that includes optics if they have them.

I don’t see a red/green dot on a carry piece as much more of a liability than the handgun itself these days with optics quality and battery life/auto turn on/off features.

Sure, it could crap out, but to those that need it, it’s a game changer.

 

[Robert]

I do. Well, it's my duty gun, but still yes. And it has a weapon light too. I carry a Glock 45 with a Trijicon RMR. I practice with the dot on, the front side blocked, dot off, using irons, and using different parts of the sight housing and pistol for aiming.

My transition course for the red dot was two days. The first day I hated it. Day 2 everything clicked and I find it infinity easier to use than irons. Well worth the money if you are on the fence. But it is different, at first.

 

[Robert]

Could you define "self defense distances"?

For me, I point shoot out to 7 yards. I try it at 10 but 7 is easily doable.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I work in a dusty, dirty environment every day. The sights on my pistol get dusty and dirty too, but the outline is still visible, even when the tritium or fiber optic is not. If I had a red dot on there, there's no reason to presume that it would have less dust on it than the sights do. There's nothing implausible about that. Has nothing to do with maintenance. Not everyone spends their days in a clean office.

For the overwhelming majority of people that CCW, their concealment garment protects the RDO from "dust". If anything, the window may have condensation on it from sweat, or maybe even sweat itself.

If "dust" is an issue, then obviously an RDO is a poor choice for that particular environment. No RDO is how one deals with "dust".

 

[bearcreek]

Lol. We should obviously be doing that before we get on the job site, and the vast majority of us don’t carry on the actual job site.

I’m just saying we should be doing checks on our weapons, and that includes optics if they have them.

I don’t see a red/green dot on a carry piece as much more of a liability than the handgun itself these days with optics quality and battery life/auto turn on/off features.

Sure, it could crap out, but to those that need it, it’s a game changer.

They've certainly come a long way and they're a great option for a lot of folks. Just doesn't work as well for some of us who work (or play) in dirty environments. That's not because the optic might "crap out" but because even if the dot is still there and holding zero, it doesn't help if you can't see it.

 

[bearcreek]

For the overwhelming majority of people that CCW, their concealment garment protects the RDO from "dust". If anything, the window may have condensation on it from sweat, or maybe even sweat itself.

If "dust" is an issue, then obviously an RDO is a poor choice for that particular environment. No RDO is how one deals with "dust".

Agreed. They're a great option for a lot of folks.

 

[bearcreek]

For me, I point shoot out to 7 yards. I try it at 10 but 7 is easily doable.

My question was addressed to @MikeInOr, who seemed to be implying that there are set "self defense distances" (presumably short ones). I was just curious how he defined that term and at what distance he would cease (or not begin) to defend himself and/or others.

 

[Walkalong]

Just doesn't work as well for some of us who work (or play) in dirty environments

Just curious, what kind of environment that is so dirty the carry piece optic can't last a day?

 

[Ohen Cepel]

They are not for me. Working to like them more, but I'm not of the generation (or maybe mentality) to go that way. Hunting pistol or target; yes, am liking that a bit. But, not on a carry gun as I don't like the bulk and they are not as fast for me now. I may change my mind but I don't have that long to change these days.

I had the battery in a dot die on me at a bad time in OEF, that put me off on them. I know it is rare, but that stuck with me in a bad way.

Plus, I don't care for the expense to put them on a lot of stuff. I will not buy chinese dots nor cheap ones so the $$ piles up fast if you want them on many things. I can still find the front sight fast and put a hole where I want for now.

 

[MikeInOr]

Could you define "self defense distances"?

My question was addressed to @MikeInOr, who seemed to be implying that there are set "self defense distances" (presumably short ones). I was just curious how he defined that term and at what distance he would cease (or not begin) to defend himself and/or others.

THE RANGE for firing at an assailant in self defense is close enough that I can no longer remove myself from the situation and I am in immanent danger! If I can get my ass out of the way that is going to be my first choice.

I am not a cop. I do not have a responsibility to seek out and subdue an assailant! My responsibility to my family and myself is to stay alive and healthy. I have people that depend on me and depend on me not being stupid and putting my life in danger.

Real life is not TV and the Movies. Movies and TV are NOT real life!

 

[chicharrones]

Just curious, what kind of environment that is so dirty the carry piece optic can't last a day?

For some folks, pushing a rear bagging lawn mower during certain times of the year will cover us in dust and fine plant debris. And that crap gets deep into our clothing. My air compressor gets put to use blowing out a firearm and the mower's air filter after one of those dust blowing sessions.

Thanks to the masks we had to use back in 2020 to go into job sites, I learned to wear KN95s on dusty yard work days. The amount of brown on the front of that lung filter (from me sucking air through it) is fairly amazing.

Last summer I worked in a warehouse disassembling machinery while a crew was in the same warehouse sanding the paint off the concrete floors. Sure, they had vacuum systems hooked up to the sanders, but that only got maybe 80% of the dust out of the air. We were sucking air through face filters while working in the non air conditioned warehouse that summer. Profuse sweat and plenty of concrete/paint dust everywhere. I was carrying because it's legal for me to carry at work most of the time, so I do out of habit.

This makes me think of home re-modelers that have to do a lot of interior sanding. Or cabinet makers, like one of my neighbors that works out of his garage with a 1911 under his shirt. Fine talcum like wood dust everywhere.

I can only imagine what people in a wind blown desert have to deal with.

Just in case some folks wonder why people carry while doing yard work, this is known to happen across the USA.

Two men seen on video robbing man of yard equipment in broad daylight

A man was doing yardwork in southeast Houston when two men – one of them armed – robbed him of lawn equipment in broad daylight.

youtu.be

 

[trackskippy]

For some folks, pushing a rear bagging lawn mower during certain times of the year will cover us in dust and fine plant debris. And that crap gets deep into our clothing. My air compressor gets put to use blowing out a firearm and the mower's air filter after one of those dust blowing sessions.

Thanks to the masks we had to use back in 2020 to go into job sites, I learned to wear KN95s on dusty yard work days. The amount of brown on the front of that lung filter (from me sucking air through it) is fairly amazing.

Last summer I worked in a warehouse disassembling machinery while a crew was in the same warehouse sanding the paint off the concrete floors. Sure, they had vacuum systems hooked up to the sanders, but that only got maybe 80% of the dust out of the air. We were sucking air through face filters while working in the non air conditioned warehouse that summer. Profuse sweat and plenty of concrete/paint dust everywhere. I was carrying because it's legal for me to carry at work most of the time, so I do out of habit.

This makes me think of home re-modelers that have to do a lot of interior sanding. Or cabinet makers, like one of my neighbors that works out of his garage with a 1911 under his shirt. Fine talcum like wood dust everywhere.

I can only imagine what people in a wind blown desert have to deal with.

Just in case some folks wonder why people carry while doing yard work, this is known to happen across the USA.

Two men seen on video robbing man of yard equipment in broad daylight

A man was doing yardwork in southeast Houston when two men – one of them armed – robbed him of lawn equipment in broad daylight.

youtu.be

Ive spent a good part of my life working in those sorts of environments, and all the while wearing a gun. If you think its dusty in an open room, try spending the day in concrete structures, like manholes, inlet boxes, etc, with a demo saw cutting holes for pipes that were missed or changed. Even wearing an N95 mask the whole time (you weren't breathing otherwise), you still had a nose full of crap at the end of the day.

Ive only more recently switched over to a red dot on my carry guns, and wasn't carrying one when I was doing that sort of thing, but knowing what the guns I was carrying looked like at the end of the day when I was, and from what Ive seen now, still occasionally doing similar stuff, Im not seeing it being an issue, as long as you stay on top of things with your daily maintenance, as you should be anyway. If you are carrying the gun IWB, with a garment with a fairly tight weave over it, you get very little crap on it. Carry it in something like a Smart Carry, and you wont see any. You still need to maintain your stuff, but its not at all bad if you pay attention.

One of my biggest concerns when I was considering switching over to the dots was whats being discussed here, crap on the screens. And all I asked that had been carrying with one for a while, said it hadn't been an issue. And I realize and took into account that most people don't live and work in those types of environments and knew the only way I was going to know for sure, was to just do it and see. So far, it hasn't been an issue, even on those "dirty" days. I verify things (screens are clear, dots are the right brightness, etc) twice a day, and hit the gun at night with an air can just before bed, when I adjust the dots brightness. I have yet to see the glass have enough of a build-up of anything on it that it wouldn't work. Generally, if there is anything, its a light bit of clothing lint/dust bunnies, which is gone with a quick "puff".

Maybe if you're someone who doesn't keep up on things, you may run into an issue, but I think if you use a little common sense and maintain things appropriately to your daily needs, its not likely going to be a problem.


As far as the video clip there at the end. Best be careful what you post there, you'll burst a lot of bubbles with stuff like that.

Things like multiple attackers in nice neighborhoods when and where you arent supposed to expect things like that to happen, doesn't fit what you're always told around here. There are rules, dont'cha know! And that kind of stuff isnt supposed to happen.

 

[chicharrones]

Ive spent a good part of my life working in those sorts of environments, and all the while wearing a gun. If you think its dusty in an open room, try spending the day in concrete structures, like manholes, inlet boxes, etc, with a demo saw cutting holes for pipes that were missed or changed. Even wearing an N95 mask the whole time (you weren't breathing otherwise), you still had a nose full of crap at the end of the day.

Ive only more recently switched over to a red dot on my carry guns, and wasn't carrying one when I was doing that sort of thing, but knowing what the guns I was carrying looked like at the end of the day when I was, and from what Ive seen now, still occasionally doing similar stuff, Im not seeing it being an issue, as long as you stay on top of things with your daily maintenance, as you should be anyway. If you are carrying the gun IWB, with a garment with a fairly tight weave over it, you get very little crap on it. Carry it in something like a Smart Carry, and you wont see any. You still need to maintain your stuff, but its not at all bad if you pay attention.

One of my biggest concerns when I was considering switching over to the dots was whats being discussed here, crap on the screens. And all I asked that had been carrying with one for a while, said it hadn't been an issue. And I realize and took into account that most people don't live and work in those types of environments and knew the only way I was going to know for sure, was to just do it and see. So far, it hasn't been an issue, even on those "dirty" days. I verify things (screens are clear, dots are the right brightness, etc) twice a day, and hit the gun at night with an air can just before bed, when I adjust the dots brightness. I have yet to see the glass have enough of a build-up of anything on it that it wouldn't work. Generally, if there is anything, its a light bit of clothing lint/dust bunnies, which is gone with a quick "puff".

Maybe if you're someone who doesn't keep up on things, you may run into an issue, but I think if you use a little common sense and maintain things appropriately to your daily needs, its not likely going to be a problem.


As far as the video clip there at the end. Best be careful what you post there, you'll burst a lot of bubbles with stuff like that.

Things like multiple attackers in nice neighborhoods when and where you arent supposed to expect things like that to happen, doesn't fit what you're always told around here. There are rules, dont'cha know! And that kind of stuff isnt supposed to happen.

Good feedback, @trackskippy . Thanks.

 

[bearcreek]

Just curious, what kind of environment that is so dirty the carry piece optic can't last a day?

Just to clarify once again, I'm not talking about the durability of the optic. I'm talking about the glass being dirty enough to block both the dot and the irons. Logging, tree work, post frame construction, framing, four wheeling, dirt biking, back country elk, deer and bear hunting are all things that can subject a firearm to a lot of dirt and dust. I use a bikini cover on my hunting and fighting rifle scopes at certain times for that reason. Each day, I need to wipe the dust off the iron sights on my pistol and it's not uncommon for it to be thick enough that the tritium is obscured.

As I said before, red dot sights on pistols are a fine option for a lot of folks, just not for everyone.

 

[bearcreek]

THE RANGE for firing at an assailant in self defense is close enough that I can no longer remove myself from the situation and I am in immanent danger! If I can get my ass out of the way that is going to be my first choice.

I am not a cop. I do not have a responsibility to seek out and subdue an assailant! My responsibility to my family and myself is to stay alive and healthy. I have people that depend on me and depend on me not being stupid and putting my life in danger.

Real life is not TV and the Movies. Movies and TV are NOT real life!

Ok...... That's not a definition. You stated that you,

don't even really need iron sights at self defense distances

I'd like to know what distances we're talking about here.