That's a good point about the IWB holster and cover garment and you're right that that does help significantly. My problem is, I'm not the type of person who switches pistols a lot depending on what I'm doing. I'm carrying the same Glock 19 sized gun 90+% of the time. The way that that gets carried changes though depending on what I'm doing. In town or at social events, it's in a AIWB holster, covered up and protected. Running a chainsaw, hunting, riding or hiking in the backcountry, it's in an OWB holster on my belt or on a pack belt or it's in a chest rig. Again, same pistol though. It's got to work for all of those scenarios. I could use different guns for those different scenarios, but prefer to keep it simple.
Optics on your concealed carry?
- Thread starter WisBorn
- Start date
Really? Sounds to me like you are a blowhard trying to pick a fight!
Nope. When I have discussions, I find that's it's beneficial to know how my fellow conversationalists define the words and phrases that they're using. Besides, can one actually "fight" online? Guess we'd have to define that too!
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You asked and I gave you my answer. I don't walk around with a measuring tape in my pocket to define my defense zone. I have no hard and fast rule for defining exactly how many yards, feet and inches I would consider taking a shot. It varies depending on the situation. It also depends on the gun I am packing at the time. I know my capabilities with my carry guns and I know how they vary from a careful well aimed shot and a quick off the hip shot. The only constant is that I will be packing a gun if I am out of the house.Nope. When I have discussions, I find that's it's beneficial to know how my fellow conversationalists define the words and phrases that they're using. Besides, can one actually "fight" online? Guess we'd have to define that too!
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Sounds good. Since you stated that you really didn't need sights at self defense ranges, it seemed like a reasonable question to ask. A man who can makes good hits at, say, 25 yards without using sights is impressive indeed. 25 inches, less so. Without some clarification, the rest of us would never know.
If a threat is within 10 feet of me I believe sights are useless because I would not have time to take a well aimed shot... I would have to pull and fire. I believe that within 10 feet is by far the highest probability of a situation that I would have to fire my gun to defend myself. I do practice shooting from the hip at 10 feet with my carry guns.Sounds good. Since you stated that you really didn't need sights at self defense ranges, it seemed like a reasonable question to ask. A man who can makes good hits at, say, 25 yards without using sights is impressive indeed. 25 inches, less so. Without some clarification, the rest of us would never know.
I have a hard time foreseeing any situation in which I would need to fire at someone who is 25 yards away... unless I was starring in the latest action movie. My most carried gun is my DB9 gen 4 (which does have decent sights). With it I can reliably hit center of mass of an assailant at 25 yards with a carefully aimed shot. Again, why would I be shooting at someone 25 yards away rather than running in the other direction or taking cover? ...unless I am in a movie.
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That was clearly understood.
@trackskippy 's post was helpful there, I too have run machines that make a ton of dust, worked in "dirty" environments,
so his post was a good reminder of that kind of thing. That could complicate things a little.
What kind of holster are you using? I assume we're talking open tractor here, no cab?
I do have a RDS on my carry pistol. I had to practice (a lot) - both live and dry fire - to get to the point where I could aquire the dot as quickly as I could the iron sights.
I made the effort because my aging eyes do not allow me to see the front sight as well as I used to be able to. Corrective lenses help - but I have to remember to use the bi-focal part of the lenses, and I do not have on my glasses on all the time.
I have a set-up that still allows for the iron sights to be used. So even if the battery / RDS fails, I have a means of aiming the pistol.
I do not typically find myself in environments that would cause the "screen" of the sight to get dirty. It does get dusty enough, even under my cover garment (usually just a shirt) that it needs a cleaning every week or so.
I did have an unusual event about a month ago. I was home that day, and among other things, had made some bread. Later in the evening, when I took off my pistol, I found this...
I was was not wearing a cover garment since I was home, had evidently spilled some flour against my waist, and some of it had packed in against the screen of my RDS.
Interestingly, I could still see the dot. And I could see through the window enough that I could have used it, had I needed to.
So... This experience will probably reenforce the beliefs of those on both "sides" of the issue. But for me, I feel having the RDS on my carry gun has been a help to my ability to to make quick, accurate shots.
As far as it making my CCW harder to conceal... I have not noticed it making any difference. I have had to slightly modify a couple holsters to accommodate the sight. But that was a simple "dremel job".
I made the effort because my aging eyes do not allow me to see the front sight as well as I used to be able to. Corrective lenses help - but I have to remember to use the bi-focal part of the lenses, and I do not have on my glasses on all the time.
I have a set-up that still allows for the iron sights to be used. So even if the battery / RDS fails, I have a means of aiming the pistol.
I do not typically find myself in environments that would cause the "screen" of the sight to get dirty. It does get dusty enough, even under my cover garment (usually just a shirt) that it needs a cleaning every week or so.
I did have an unusual event about a month ago. I was home that day, and among other things, had made some bread. Later in the evening, when I took off my pistol, I found this...
I was was not wearing a cover garment since I was home, had evidently spilled some flour against my waist, and some of it had packed in against the screen of my RDS.
Interestingly, I could still see the dot. And I could see through the window enough that I could have used it, had I needed to.
So... This experience will probably reenforce the beliefs of those on both "sides" of the issue. But for me, I feel having the RDS on my carry gun has been a help to my ability to to make quick, accurate shots.
As far as it making my CCW harder to conceal... I have not noticed it making any difference. I have had to slightly modify a couple holsters to accommodate the sight. But that was a simple "dremel job".
.38 Special
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Just a note on "self-defense distance":
en.wikipedia.org
I don't know if the gentleman who took those 40 yard shots felt that it was the safest option for him, or if he had other motivation, but it does appear that there is at least a possibility of 25+ yard shots becoming necessary.
The likelihood, of course, is near zero, and I would never tell a CCW man that he needs to be prepared for it. Nor, though, would I tell him that he should not.
Greenwood Park Mall shooting - Wikipedia
I don't know if the gentleman who took those 40 yard shots felt that it was the safest option for him, or if he had other motivation, but it does appear that there is at least a possibility of 25+ yard shots becoming necessary.
The likelihood, of course, is near zero, and I would never tell a CCW man that he needs to be prepared for it. Nor, though, would I tell him that he should not.
trackskippy
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The extra money is well spent if you're buying decent/reasonable stuff and applying yourself to learning to use it.
This is just another one of those "you know what you know...." things.
This is just another one of those "you know what you know...." things.
.38 Special
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I have one CCW gun with an optic.
I put it together with mass shootings, like the Greenwood Mall incident, in mind.
It generally is not my EDC, as it is heavier than I would like. It conceals well, though, and is accurate and shootable enough for the task. I carry it only when I know I will be in places like, well, malls - which is not very often.
I have not yet found any reason to worry about reliability or battery life. The thing does get the usual dust and lint on it, as is true of any gun I carry, and the same regular maintenance I perform on any carry gun solves the problem.
Despite long experience with dots - I was using them for competition in the early nineties - it took me quite some time to get up to speed with this one. I suspect that had far more to do with the gun than the optic, though: I have relatively little experience with Glocks, and they point quite differently than the DA revolvers I have always carried. I suspect that if I'd put the dot on one of them, the transition would have been nearly seamless. I'm not ever going to put a dot sight on a classic S&W revolver, though.
I put it together with mass shootings, like the Greenwood Mall incident, in mind.
It generally is not my EDC, as it is heavier than I would like. It conceals well, though, and is accurate and shootable enough for the task. I carry it only when I know I will be in places like, well, malls - which is not very often.
I have not yet found any reason to worry about reliability or battery life. The thing does get the usual dust and lint on it, as is true of any gun I carry, and the same regular maintenance I perform on any carry gun solves the problem.
Despite long experience with dots - I was using them for competition in the early nineties - it took me quite some time to get up to speed with this one. I suspect that had far more to do with the gun than the optic, though: I have relatively little experience with Glocks, and they point quite differently than the DA revolvers I have always carried. I suspect that if I'd put the dot on one of them, the transition would have been nearly seamless. I'm not ever going to put a dot sight on a classic S&W revolver, though.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
That’s what I think when I have to buy a new batch of magazines to go with a new pistola.
DetBrowning
Contributing Member
My quoted statistic was from the NYPD Firearms & Tactics Section which at that time was obtained from documented armed encounters by the NYPD and (I believe) FBI or DOJ statistics.
Fortunately we apparently all did well and have walked (or limped in some cases) away with our meager pensions.
OP
OP
WisBorn
Contributing Member
I voted for the 3rd option.
I have a dot on my Glock 20. I don't have dots on my primary carry guns, but have been debating about adding a 9mm with a rds.
I have a dot on my Glock 20. I don't have dots on my primary carry guns, but have been debating about adding a 9mm with a rds.
wally
Member
I've been an early adopter of red dot optics on a carry gun since my vision started going south 10+ years ago. This was my first, I had to make my own mount, optic cost more than the gun!:
I mostly carried it "deep concealment" in my boot with a cheap "uncle mike's" fabric holster.
When I retired and could dress around the gun I moved to this S&W Shield .40:
And now wanting more rounds I've moved to a Springfield Hellcat 9mm:
It fits in my pants pocket using a home made holster to cover the trigger guard. Pocket carry works great for me with 11+1 in the pistol and a spare 13 round mag in the left pocket I've 25 rounds on tap.
I mostly carried it "deep concealment" in my boot with a cheap "uncle mike's" fabric holster.
When I retired and could dress around the gun I moved to this S&W Shield .40:
And now wanting more rounds I've moved to a Springfield Hellcat 9mm:
It fits in my pants pocket using a home made holster to cover the trigger guard. Pocket carry works great for me with 11+1 in the pistol and a spare 13 round mag in the left pocket I've 25 rounds on tap.
OP
OP
WisBorn
Contributing Member
Stopped at a my LGS today and looked at a Kimber R7 Mako with a CT RDS on it. I have a R7, they are cut for a RDS. I really like my Kimber and it comes up automatically. I found myself searching for the dot 
.
It seemed to me that it is easier to find the dot by lining up the sights and the dot will be there!?!.
I guess I need to just keep practicing with my Glock 20 until the dot is easier to find, making it as automatic as the sights are now on my other pistols.
.It seemed to me that it is easier to find the dot by lining up the sights and the dot will be there!?!.
I guess I need to just keep practicing with my Glock 20 until the dot is easier to find, making it as automatic as the sights are now on my other pistols.
trackskippy
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It comes up automatically with the irons, because you practice with the irons and present the gun the way you were taught or figured out to present it with the irons. The red dot isn't the irons.
I always presented the gun with iron sights with my focus on the target and my front sight. I also tend to push the gun out right away, picking up the front sight as I go and put it on the target.
When I bring the gun up that way, the attitude of the gun is slightly more "muzzle up" due to looking for and focusing on that front sight. If you do that with a dot sight on the gun, you wont see the dot, because its sitting somewhere above the top of the sight (that's where the iron sight alignment is, if you roll your head down and look) and you need to drop the muzzle end to have it appear.
With a dot on the gun, you need to break a couple of habits and instill a couple of new ones. Thats where the learning curve has been for me. It was a lot easier once I saw and understood what was going on and focused on correcting it.
With your focus on the "target", you want to bring the gun up closer in, in front of your face first (instead of pushing out right away) with the muzzle more level or slightly down and you'll pick up the dot more quickly and closer in. Dont push the gun out and then start looking for the dot.
You're also not focusing on the dot, but on the target. If you present the gun right, like you were point shooting the target, the dot will be there, and usually very close to being on target, if not on target. "Point shooting" is a big clue here too.
This may make more sense as far as the presentation goes. The top half of the triangle is the "dot" presentation, and the lower half, using the "irons" presentation trying to pick up the dot.
One thing Im seeing now since I've been focusing on shooting the dots is, my irons are more on target quicker and very close to already being aligned on presentation, as Ive broken that "muzzle up" on presentation habit and Im presenting the gun more muzzle down, like Im shooting the dot.
I always presented the gun with iron sights with my focus on the target and my front sight. I also tend to push the gun out right away, picking up the front sight as I go and put it on the target.
When I bring the gun up that way, the attitude of the gun is slightly more "muzzle up" due to looking for and focusing on that front sight. If you do that with a dot sight on the gun, you wont see the dot, because its sitting somewhere above the top of the sight (that's where the iron sight alignment is, if you roll your head down and look) and you need to drop the muzzle end to have it appear.
With a dot on the gun, you need to break a couple of habits and instill a couple of new ones. Thats where the learning curve has been for me. It was a lot easier once I saw and understood what was going on and focused on correcting it.
With your focus on the "target", you want to bring the gun up closer in, in front of your face first (instead of pushing out right away) with the muzzle more level or slightly down and you'll pick up the dot more quickly and closer in. Dont push the gun out and then start looking for the dot.
You're also not focusing on the dot, but on the target. If you present the gun right, like you were point shooting the target, the dot will be there, and usually very close to being on target, if not on target. "Point shooting" is a big clue here too.
This may make more sense as far as the presentation goes. The top half of the triangle is the "dot" presentation, and the lower half, using the "irons" presentation trying to pick up the dot.
One thing Im seeing now since I've been focusing on shooting the dots is, my irons are more on target quicker and very close to already being aligned on presentation, as Ive broken that "muzzle up" on presentation habit and Im presenting the gun more muzzle down, like Im shooting the dot.
OP
OP
WisBorn
Contributing Member
Thank you for the explanation. I will practice with my G20 to see if it becomes a natural process.It comes up automatically with the irons, because you practice with the irons and present the gun the way you were taught or figured out to present it with the irons. The red dot isn't the irons.
I always presented the gun with iron sights with my focus on the target and my front sight. I also tend to push the gun out right away, picking up the front sight as I go and put it on the target.
When I bring the gun up that way, the attitude of the gun is slightly more "muzzle up" due to looking for and focusing on that front sight. If you do that with a dot sight on the gun, you wont see the dot, because its sitting somewhere above the top of the sight (that's where the iron sight alignment is, if you roll your head down and look) and you need to drop the muzzle end to have it appear.
With a dot on the gun, you need to break a couple of habits and instill a couple of new ones. Thats where the learning curve has been for me. It was a lot easier once I saw and understood what was going on and focused on correcting it.
With your focus on the "target", you want to bring the gun up closer in, in front of your face first (instead of pushing out right away) with the muzzle more level or slightly down and you'll pick up the dot more quickly and closer in. Dont push the gun out and then start looking for the dot.
You're also not focusing on the dot, but on the target. If you present the gun right, like you were point shooting the target, the dot will be there, and usually very close to being on target, if not on target. "Point shooting" is a big clue here too.
This may make more sense as far as the presentation goes. The top half of the triangle is the "dot" presentation, and the lower half, using the "irons" presentation trying to pick up the dot.
One thing Im seeing now since I've been focusing on shooting the dots is, my irons are more on target quicker and very close to already being aligned on presentation, as Ive broken that "muzzle up" on presentation habit and Im presenting the gun more muzzle down, like Im shooting the dot.
trackskippy
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It gets easier the more you fool with them. And fooling with them all the time is the biggest help. I still dry fire both guns with dots and without every day. The constant repetition is really the only way to get things ingrained.
Two handed presentations seem to be easier than one handed, and one handed isn't far behind if you keep at that too.
I still think "Point shooting" is the clue (especially one handed) and the way.
Two handed presentations seem to be easier than one handed, and one handed isn't far behind if you keep at that too.
I still think "Point shooting" is the clue (especially one handed) and the way.
Jack19
Member
No where to put an optic.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
That could be remedied.
Springfield SA35 - Trijicon RMRCC
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Which is fine if you see the sights well..........if you don't........YMMV......Nice looking pistola.
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