Optics or Irons for a beginner

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Konstantin835

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I am still somewhat new to shooting and have a scope on one rifle and irons on another. From prone I shoot 2 inch groups at 50 yards with my marlin 795 open sights. (The sights are pretty bad IMO) With my Savage mark 2 I can shoot 1 hole at 50 yards with a cheapish Tasco 3-9. My question is basically, If I use a scope more than irons will that form bad habits with my technique or "spoil" me on using optics? Many of you have probably heard the phrase "If you can't shoot with irons, you can't shoot" so should I get really good with irons before using optics or does it not matter? This may sound like a stupid question but I appreciate the help.
 
I always recommend mastering irons before moving to optics. It will give you a deeper understanding and appreciation for technique and shooting fundamentals, and that is really what separates an "OK" shooter from a good shooter, and a good shooter from a great shooter. There are some reasons to go optics instead, such as eye problems, but if you can see decently enough, even with contacts or glasses, you should master those irons.

If you want some better irons for that Marlin, check these out.

Jason
 
You should do what keeps you interested in shooting. If irons do nothing but frustrate you I would do whats fun and entertaining. Crappy irons are often no fun to shoot. A crappy scope is the same way. Not saying those are good or bad irons or that you have to spend a fortune to enjoy shooting irons, but a quality set with quality adjustments make shooting a much more enjoyably experience.

There are many fundamentals that are important to good shooting. While a scope takes some of the skill set away that is required with irons, it still requires the other areas to be strong to produce good, consistent groups. Any shooting is good shooting. Shooting irons well takes a lot of focus on multiple issues.

Do what you enjoy and keep shooting. Trigger time is important, using a scope or irons.
 
I'd say try to spend more time with the irons than the optics. Irons are much harder to break and nearly always work. Think about if you bump your scope on the way out to the deer stand, or if it starts to fog. You can always use the irons as a backup.

Also, I agree with Jason that someone who can shoot irons well tends to be a better shot than someone who shoots only with optics. Not sure exactly why that is, but it seems to hold true.
 
I knew what that link was to before I even clicked on it. I'm definitely going to get a set of tech-sights but right now I'm just a teenager with a summer job and any online purchasing is through my parents credit card and is usually met with "you want more stuff for guns? Thats expensive".
 
definitely optics , and if possible start out on semi automatics and practice quick shooting. Gotta observe strict safety though.
 
Think about if you bump your scope on the way out to the deer stand, or if it starts to fog. You can always use the irons as a backup.

I guess I agree with that in general, but he has a .22lr. I hope he's not hunting deer with it :p

That said, they do have some pretty solid mounts and optics these days that can withstand a pretty good wallop without losing their zero. And adjustable irons can be bumped and knocked out of their proper position just as easily as a cheap mount if they're hit the right way.

Jason
 
I'm just a teenager with a summer job and any online purchasing is through my parents credit card and is usually met with "you want more stuff for guns? Thats expensive".

Yeah, well, I'm 31, married with a kid, and any online purchasing I do is through my debit card and is usually met with the same exact comment, but from my wife! As different as our worlds may be, I feel your pain. :D

Keep shooting that Marlin. If you have RealPlayer, you should look at these videos for marksmanship tips. They are Army training films from what looks to be the '40s or '50s on the M1 Garand, but the basic fundamentals and principles apply to any rifle. There are two parts. One is mostly on snapping into positions, using a sling properly, and firing the shot. The other is mostly about sight adjustments, judging windage, etc, IIRC.

You can find them and download them for free here. Just download the ones that have a file extension you can play, and enjoy. The RealPlayer extension is ".flv".

Jason
 
Dunno about any "spoilage". Granted, I mostly used irons from age 7 to age 16, but until Old Age ate my eyebones and put me on scopes-only, I never had any problem going back and forth.

In general, standard sights that come on .22 rifles are not at all precise, so it's hard to really get tight groups. As said earlier, precision irons really help in getting tighter groups.
 
Wouldn't the opposite though be better to learn on? Just hear me out here.

Its clear that it takes extra skill to shoot irons well compared to a scope. Why start on the harder option if you have to learn all the skills to shoot? I hate when automobile analogies are tossed out, but its like the difference between your first car having an automatic or having an extra stiff/strong race ready manual clutch. One is far harder to drive than the other (reliable optics easier than crude irons) and in the beginning you really don't need to be worrying about how to master one of the harder systems right off the bat. Most things in life we learn simple and move to the harder and more complex. This is one of the few areas where people suggest you start with the toughest and work into easier equipment. It just doesn't make sense to me that shooting would be different than practically everything else we learn in life.

I would think if you start with a good scope, you can focus more on position, breathing, trigger pull etc and go from there. I'm all for good irons having CZs with arguably the best notch and post style irons as well as a couple CMP Kimbers with some very good aperture irons. I feel you may be able to progress quicker if you have less to think about at first and add on rather than start as complex and crude as it gets (talking about the factory sights, not all irons).
 
Benzy, I can honestly say that goes against all i've ever been taught, lol. Since I've been itty bitty I've been taught that you should be taught to drive with a manual transmission first. Reason being, if you can drive a manual, specifically pull out on a good hill, then you can drive anything...even a large roll-back...long story. Any way I feel the same basic way about irons, if you can shoot with the most basic equipment (iron sights) you can easily transition to stuff that should make it easier. Besides if your scope gets busted and you cant shoot with irons for poo-diddle, well then I reckon you'd be up a rather foul creek without a means of propulsion. :)
 
I don't think you have to do irons "first."

I spent a long time training for a dangerous game hunt a while back. I spent equal time with the scope and irons of my rifle. Some sessions one, some the other; some both.

I think mixing them up like that was a big help. I'm no stranger to irons, but I was consistently faster and more accurate with the scope...and that gave me a goal whenever I switched to irons: get just as fast and accurate with the iron sights (at least up close).
 
Irons are fun to shoot and the compensating for changes in distances is part of the challenge. With my Win 94, I was able to get a 2'' group at 100 yards, plenty accurate for hunting and plinking purposes.
 
I've always been a fan of iron sights. My philosophy is if you can shoot good with irons you'll be great with optics.
However the basics/technique is what matters most with either. Easy trigger pull(don't jerk it)hold your breath 3 seconds then fire and don't flinch(this is the most difficult because most don't even know it when they shoot. But with a .22 that should be a non issue.

Case and point. I was at the range a few years ago shooting my M1 and 03 springfield at 50yds to dial in the sights before moving to 100yds. Keep in mind these are 30-06 rifles and flenching is a problem. The guys next to me noticed how accurate I was shooting without a scope. They had their fancy red dot on a .223 AR. They asked me if I could shoot/check their rifle because I was shooting better groups then they were. I fired off several rounds and hit a 3/4" piece of tape every time. They were impressed and so was I at the ease of using their nice red dot scope. I told them the scope is just fine and they must be doing something wrong while shooting as mentioned above.

Now my eyes are bad too but I wear corrective lenses.
Here's my 50yd target with my 1918 1903 Springfield, yes I know I'm not the best but this is good for my eyes with milsurp 30-06. I intentionally set the sights high so at 100yds they'd be right on. This is from sitting at a bench, no sand bags. Decent group I think. 95% of the time I shoot iron sights. Scopes are just too easy IMO.

PICT0001-1.gif

Left is with my 1942 Garand and right is with my 1954 Garand at 100yds with surplus 30-06

PICT0081-1.gif
 
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I got my kids started in shooting with optics. It builds confidence and they enjoy it more when they know they are actually hitting something. I will be switching them to irons and getting them off the optics. Neither of the BB guns have optics. The .410 only has a bead.
At their current age/ interest levels, I want them to enjoy it. when they start asking me to go shoot, rather then me asking them, I'll get them started with the irons.
 
It seems that the general consensus so far is irons are the way to go for practice at least. I can't wait to get a set of tech sights. Both irons and optics are really fun but just in different ways.
 
I used to think that starting a new shooter with irons was the way to go, but I have since changed my mind. The key to making or becoming a good shooter is not the ability to use the sights. What makes a good shooter is trigger control and form. Once you have those down, understanding how sights are used isn't a big deal.

If you teach a kid to shoot using a magnified scope and he can see his/her hits, they can see immediately what they are doing wrong and correct themselves.

As was mentioned before, not all irons are created equally. Some are better than others.

Personally, I don't see much difference between shooting a peep sight or shooting a red dot, except that a red dot is faster, but you can shoot more accurately with a peep sight.

I do, however, believe that the ability to use irons is a must. Just not necessarily how they should start out.
 
I have to agree with ART and other posters. Kinda depends on age and eye sight. someone with 20/10 eyesight and irons can be very accurate but when the eyes go and you can not even see the front sight then a Red Dot or scope will fill the bill.
 
Most new shooters learn faster with optics.

From benzy2, post#11

"Its clear that it takes extra skill to shoot irons well compared to a scope. Why start on the harder option if you have to learn all the skills to shoot? "

I agree with benzy2. This is not a question about equipment. It is a question of the characteristics of most students and the process of learning. Benzy2's analogy of learning to drive with an automatic is a good one. On modern vehicles, manual transmissions have few advantages and are a specialty item on specialized types of vehicles for most drivers. (But all drivers should still learn to use a manual after learning with an auto.)

For recreational shooters in the 21st century, iron sights are almost never the best choice (except for economical backup sights, dangerous game at close range, and for target competitions which require irons.) A hunter, plinker, and target shooter (in many, not all, events) can enjoy a lifetime of shooting without ever messing with irons. Even for hunters, carrying a small red dot sight with a quick detachable mount in their hunting packs is a much better choice for a backup sight (if they can afford the extra cost of $100 to 300$.)

As an NRA marksmanship instructor and hunter safety instructor, I've taught well over 1,000 youngsters and 100's of adults to shoot. In those training programs, (and in my own development as a shooter,) most beginners started out with irons, or in case of hunter safety, with whatever they had.

But with my friends and some experimental classes, I taught with scopes and red dots first. For a completely new shooter, that is the way to go. Beginning students progress much more rapidly with scopes and red dots. A beginner can become a very good shot with a low recoil rifle in 8 to 12 (often less) 1 to 2 hr. sessions.

Many young students have more fun and feel more motivated with a red dot rather than a scope. They also learn quickly, but their accuracy is usually more comparable to students with aperture sights.

Most shooters start teaching their children to shoot with a low quality, too heavy .22 rifle with open sights, a poorly fitting stock, and a crappy trigger. Two or three years later, the child is still progressing, but still is not a skilled marksman. You would be amazed at how well 9 and 10 year old students can shoot after 8 to 12 sessions (sometimes as few as 5 or 6) when they learn on lightweight rifles with scopes, a good trigger, and a properly fitting stock. After learning the fundamentals, it's not unusual to see them hitting beer cans pretty consistently at 100 yds. from prone or sitting positions.

There is no doubt that a new shooter can learn to shoot well with irons (if he has decent eyesight), but it should only be done with aperture sights at first. Many who posted on this thread seem to believe that there is some kind of benefit to learning by the harder method first. But in terms of learning efficiency, students learn faster, are better motivated, and have more fun while learning other basic fundamentals without having to concentrate on sight alignment.

The aperture sight is superior to open sights with respect to speed (with ghost ring or wide aperture) and accuracy, and aperture sights can be built in such a way that they are as sturdy and reliable as open sights (as well as not hanging up on saddle scabbards.) Easily adjustable aperture sights are very good for teaching beginners with a .22 rifle out to a range of 50 yd. A quick detachable aperture sight which mounts directly on the scope base is also a good choice for backup sights on a scoped hunting rifle, but it is more expensive and harder to find than using the open sights which were mounted at the factory.

Aside from their expense, one disadvantage with scopes and aperture sights is that they require a good fitting stock if you want to be able to shoot quickly. On most .22 rifles which come with factory open sights, a higher comb will be required for scopes and red dot sights for most shooters. (There are some good add-on cheek pads available for raising the comb height, but most shooters consider them ugly.) Red dot sights and low magnification scopes are faster (for almost all shooters who have practiced with them) than any kind of iron sight, but only if the stock fits correctly. Red dot and open sights on hunting rifles also require a good fitting stock for quick shooting, but the need is less critical with red dot and open sights.

Shooters and manufacturers would both be well served if most rifles came equipped with higher combed stocks, a front sight, and a scope base. More manufacturers could then offer inexpensive quick detachable aperture sights which mount on scope bases. There would never be a need to cut a dovetail in a barrel for the installation of sights. The customer could decide whether to mount a red dot, a scope, or an aperture. If the front sight were screwed on, the customer could decide whether or not to leave it on.

When compared to aperture sights, open sights on rifles for recreational shooters have been obsolete for a 100 years. (Yes, I know. They're cheap; they work; and many shooters shoot well with them.) The only real advantage with open sights is that they are often easier to use than an aperture sight or a scope when the stock does not fit you. The only reasons they still exist is that they are the most economical for the factory to install; many shooters like the traditional look; and that's what many shooters are accustomed to using.

Open sights are the optimal choice only on specialty rifles, like cowboy action. Other than brief familiarization training, learning to shoot well with open sights should be considered an advanced skill for the post graduate shooter who needs them for a special purpose or just likes them because of nostalgia.
 
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Excellent points made by NM Mountainman.

Just recently, I let my 12 and 10 year old daughters try a SIG 522 with an Eotech 4 MOA mounted. Granted it was just 25 yards but they were hitting minute of bowling pin very consistently. That setup was so stupidly accurate that I lost a lot of money when I told them $1 for each bowling pin knocked down. They even figured out a way to knock one pin over in such a way as to knock a nearby pin over too.

Previous to that they were using a Buckmark and had some trigger time behind a Ruger 10/22 and a GSG5 one with open sights and the other with peep sights. Decent results but nowhere near as consistent as with the red dot equipped SIG.
 
I began shooting sometime around 8-year's old and shot routinely until my mid-twenties, never using optics. I shoot informally with an uncle (BP, Shotguns, revolvers) & friends when I came of majority, and more formally at summer camp (.22LR prone NRA Marksmanship) and Jr. Police and then when I served in the USAR in the 80s.

I enjoyed shooting, but didin't really fall in love with it until I purchased a 10/22 a few years ago & red-dot sight. Then I purchased Mini-14 with 3x9 scope & it opened a whole new world to me. With the Shoot'N'C targets and optics rifles shooting became so much more fun.

I agree that the most important aspect for beginning shooters is learning the fundamentals (form, breathing, trigger control, etc). I absolutely agree that learning to use iron sights is essesntial, but using optics makes shooting so much more fun.
 
Hmmm interesting. Very well said NM Mountainman. I guess its more $ on a red dot... It seems its just different for different people. Good sights do make a lot of difference comparing my shooting on my Marlin to my shooting on a Savage-Anschutz that I use courtesy of the CMP and the juniors club I'm a part of. Hopefully tech sights and a red dot are in my future but it seems trigger time with optics or irons is still the best way to learn.
 
Quote from telekinesis:

"Also, I agree with Jason that someone who can shoot irons well tends to be a better shot than someone who shoots only with optics. Not sure exactly why that is, but it seems to hold true."

Your observation may be true for the shooters you know, given the experiences they have had. Given the way most shooters have learned to shoot, a shooter "who only shoots with optics" is likely to be relatively inexperienced and is unlikely to have had much formal training.

I understand the benefits in getting a thorough grounding in the fundamentals. My father was a marksmanship instructor and an expert marksman in the Army, so I knew the fundamentals well with iron sights by the age of 12. Gun safety rules were deeply internalized and consistently followed by age 8, and I could field strip and reassemble a GI .45 blindfolded by the age of 9. At the ages of 14 through 18, I competed in NRA Small bore rifle competition, at both the adult and jr. level. By the age of 17, in adult small bore competition in any sight matches out to 50 yd., I consistently beat most experienced adult competitors using aperture sights.

I know that training using good aperture sights with an accurate, good fitting rifle with a good trigger can lead to excellent shooting skills. My motivation and self discipline were unusually strong and I had perfect vision. After four years of small bore rifle competition, I was so thoroughly grounded in the fundamentals, that all kinds of shooting with all kinds of rifles and handguns with all kinds of sights came very quickly to me.

But my point still stands. Beginning students with good rifles will become skilled shooters more quickly using optic sights first, and there is no downside later on when they learn other kinds of shooting with other kinds of sights. With young beginning shooters, fun and motivation are key elements. Students are better motivated when they experience success quickly, and their experience with video games often transfers to making shooting with scopes and red dot sights more fun. I never encounter a young beginning shooter who prefers irons over optics. You risk losing more students from lack of interest by insisting on the longer and harder way that you think is better for them.

I know shooters whose sons would rather stay home and play video games, rather than going shooting with Dad. Sometimes that is because there is a poor relationship between father and son, and sometimes it's simply because Dad barks and criticizes too much when he is coaching his kids. But most kids have a lot of interesting activities available. You can no longer assume that a boy or a girl will automatically have an interest in guns and shooting like most of us did when we were young. By the time they get to high school, most kids become more interested in doing things with friends their own age without having their parents around.

Realistically speaking, with most kids you will have your best window of opportunity to get them interested in shooting and teaching them to shoot when they are between the ages of 9 and 13. A lot of kids at this age aren't good at the kind of learning which requires a lot of delayed gratification combined with a high concentration level during routine practice. (And some kids say, "Bring it on!") It's possible to teach your kids to shoot pretty well with any kind of sights. Some of them may learn to out shoot you in 3 or 4 years. But whatever method you use, try to do it in a way that is fun and motivating for them. Using optical sights is one method which can help in doing this.
 
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