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Overall length of SBR's (AR-15, etc.)

Discussion in 'Legal' started by dillynfw, Jun 21, 2009.

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  1. dillynfw

    dillynfw Member

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    What's the overall length of a particular SBR like an AR-15 with a 10.5'' barrel?

    The overall length of a FN F2000 is 27.2'' according to wikipedia. So is the F2000 subject to SBR regulations? If not, why not?

    Also if not, then the SBR NFA requirements seem kind of silly.
     
  2. Dan Forrester

    Dan Forrester Member

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    My 10.5 AR came out to 28" with the stock all the way in. For comparison, my underfolder AK is 27" folded.

    Yes SBR and SBS and all NFA regulations seem kinda silly. Originally when the Gun Control Act of 1934 was drafted revolvers and pistols were included as NFA weapons. The SBR, SBS and AOW categories were put in to prevent people from chopping down rifles and shotguns into pistols to get around the law. Pistols and revolvers were removed from the final draft of the GCA of 1934 but the SBR, SBS and AOW categories remained.

    Dan
     
  3. Yellowfin

    Yellowfin Member

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    Has there been any effort to get SBR's removed from the NFA list? It's quite pointless.
     
  4. Quiet

    Quiet Member

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    Federal SBR lengths...
    Barrel length = less than 16"
    Overall length = less than 26"
     
  5. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    Mine is a hair over 28". I think perhaps 28.5, but I don't have the form 1 in front of me.


    No. Because the overall length is greater than 26" and the barrel is greater than 16". That's what the law says. Don't go looking for logic and reason in gun laws.
     
  6. husbandofaromanian

    husbandofaromanian Member

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    This all seems like history to me. My state, Tennessee, just passed the "Tennessee Firearms Freedom Act" and starting next month FEDERAL GUN LAWS OF ANY KIND WILL NOT APPLY to the citizens of Tennessee so long as the gun is stamped "Made in Tennessee".

    So we will no longer have to worry about NFA laws (although machine guns are still out by state law).

    I can sell guns out of my RadioShack store with no FFL.

    We will no longer have to worry about barrel length.

    I can send my 15 year old son to by my next silencer for me.

    I can make my own 37mm cannon (modern propellent) so long as I am able
    to carry and use it by myself.

    Unless of course the Federal Government would care to challenge this 10th ammendment issue and take it to the supreme court.
     
  7. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    Thread drift:

    I'm not so sure about your interpretation of the Tennessee law.

    I'll have to check, but I believe Tennessee law is worded very similarly to Texas law, which basically says

    *Suppressors, SBRs, SBSs, etc, are illegal
    * It is a defense to prosecution if you registered those illegal items under the NFA


    In other words, if those things aren't registered and have their tax stamps from the Feds, they will still be illegal under Tenn. law.

     
  8. husbandofaromanian

    husbandofaromanian Member

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    I don't think reality has sunk in yet. This bill passed last week and it's law
    next month. As a citizen of Tennessee, I will not be subject to Federal Law
    when it comes to firearms and ammunition manufactured in Tennessee and
    stamped "Made in Tennessee".

    Not much is being said about this. Probably because it's such a SHOCK!!!

    Thread drift? Maybe

    Fantastic news? Definatly!

    http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/j...s-freedom-become-law/?partner=yahoo_headlines
     
  9. Ron James

    Ron James Member

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    I think you had better step back a step and smell the coffee. Tennessee can change state law, they cannot supercede or cancel or lessen Federal law. If there was a federal law in effect prior to the passage of the state law, then it is still in effect. Remember, right or wrong, the states cannot mandate to the Feds. If I remember correctly a war was fought over that matter and the south lost.:)
     
  10. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    Right, but even in the "best case scenario" where the Feds don't arrest you and take you to federal court, and then put you in jail while you appeal, you still can't just make your own suppressor or SBR or SBS and have it be legal in Tennessee.

    Tennessee state law only allows those items if they are registered with the Feds under NFA. Otherwise they are illegal.

    therefore, you will have to worry about NFA things, you will have to worry about barrel length, and your 15 year old son won't legally be able to buy a suppressor from anyone. Thinking you will be able to do any of these things will likely get you into a lot of legal trouble.
     
  11. dillynfw

    dillynfw Member

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    That doesn't have anything to do with law. "Might makes right" and "This was resolved, Constitutionally, through the courts and/or legislature" are two different things.

    In fact, Constitutionally, at least on a collective basis, the the Feds are beholden to states' mandates. Not that the Constitution has had anything to do with life in America since the early 1900's.

    This thread went off topic.

    A F2000 can easily be carried under a coat with a legal barrel, which makes a mockery of the SBR law.
     
  12. Dan Forrester

    Dan Forrester Member

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    Husbandofaromanian: Montana and Tennessee’s new laws are simply a challenge to interstate commerce. We want to do this as tactfully as possible to maximize our chances of a victory in the courts. Making 37mm cannons, silencers and machineguns is not a good strategy. But a Rosa Parks with a Tennessee made single shot .22 rifle is!!!

    Dan
     
  13. husbandofaromanian

    husbandofaromanian Member

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    ===========================================
    How can you read the above new law and tell me that Federal law still applies
    to me being a resident of Tennessee.
    If it is made in Tennessee from basic materials and stamped "Made in Tennessee",
    Federal gun laws no longer apply to me.
     
  14. NightStalkerTX

    NightStalkerTX Member

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    Good luck with that. Let us know how it works out for you.
     
  15. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    How can you read the law posted in post #7 and tell me that your 15 year old can buy your next silencer?

    Once again, the law you posted says that Tennessee doesn't have to obey Federal gun laws. Tennessee STATE law states that you can only own NFA items that are registered under Federal law. Do you see the problem here?


    Until they change the wording of the State law, you will be in violation of the state law by owning any suppressor marked "made in Tennessee" if you haven't paid the tax and registered it with the NFA branch. The second you make a suppressor without paying the tax and filling out the paperwork, you will be in violation of both state AND federal law, just as I would be if I tried to do the same in Texas (our laws on this matter are worded very similarly.)

    If they have already amended section 39-17-1302 then all you will have to do is deal with the Feds trying to put you in jail.

    I fully support what Tennessee, Montana, and others are doing, but you need to carefully read all of the laws before you start building SBRs and suppressors in your garage.

    Also, to your earlier statement:

    I believe, based on the law posted in post #7, that machine guns are legal in Tennessee if you follow all federal laws.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2009
  16. husbandofaromanian

    husbandofaromanian Member

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    Stop raining on my parade! I'm trying to celebrate here!
     
  17. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    If you celebrate in the way you are talking about you'll spend a long time in jail.

    If you keep spreading the news that NFA laws don't apply to Tennessee residents you may encourage someone else to break the laws and they'll end up spending a lot of time in jail.

    There may come a time when all of your state laws are in your favor. That time does not appear to be right now, although from the wording of the recent Act it may be headed that way. Good luck with it, but currently there is no need to end up with jail time, fines, and a felony record to save a $200 tax.
     
  18. zoom6zoom

    zoom6zoom Member

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    There's many things I'd like to be, but a "test case" isn't one of them.
     
  19. billwiese

    billwiese Member

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    We absolutely do NOT need NFA (esp MG/suppressor) cases coming up, clouding matters, until Heller is really locked down, and RKBA is fully incorporated across US.

    Remember, the reason why we have Heller (5-4, I remind you) is because we got Kennedy and Gura stayed away from "ultra evil guns".

    Our biggest threat to guaranteed RKBA is bad lawyers bringing bad cases trying to tilt at windmills.


    Bill Wiese
    San Jose CA
     
  20. Ron James

    Ron James Member

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    I wonder how many other wise good people will wind up in prison over this?:banghead:
     
  21. Girodin

    Girodin Member

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    I suggest you read up on the commerce clause of the constitution. These state laws will not pass muster unless the SCOTUS makes a radical change in their commerce clause interpretation. Not something I would be betting on.
     
  22. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    The entire NFA is quite pointless.
     
  23. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Griodin and General Geoff -- I'm sure by now you know to check for year-and-a-day-old posts before coming out swinging.

    ;)
     
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