Overloaded Factory Ammo and Damaged Gun

[ieszu]

TX1911fan - I am looking at my CZ-40P manual, and it specifically mentions Wolf ammo and steel cased ammo as voiding the warranty. As they were made for European military/police use, and the overrun was sold in the USA, they may have had to put that in.

And I could have sworn my SA said something similar.... I wonder what the definition of "remanufactured ammo" is? Their customer service did say that they do not recommend Wolf, as it has quality control issues (Just got off the phone with them).

But if I am wrong, then I will admit it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Quite honestly, I don't know what I'll do with it. I'm really leery now.

Give it to PhillyGlocker?

 

[C96]

"Give it to PhillyGlocker?" Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.

 

[wcb]

But anyway. Are you sure a squib load didn't leave a bullet stuck in the barrel, prior to the one that did the damage? What you describe could have been caused by an obstruction in the barrel rather then an overloaded round.

A squib wont eject the brass and load another round so a squib would have had to be the first round then nothing would have loaded behind it.

That stinks though; I would ask the ammunition manufacturer for a new gun.

 

[Ativanivar]

Quote:
Quite honestly, I don't know what I'll do with it. I'm really leery now.

Give it to PhillyGlocker?

LOL.

That stinks though; I would ask the ammunition manufacturer for a new gun.

Wolf representatives have assured me that they'll bear the expense of repair/replacement.

 

[wcb]

Question, looking at the gun again; was there only one round in the chamber that went off, or did one go off on top of the magazine too? I'm surprised that there is so much damage to the grip area, that's why I ask if one went off in the magazine too.

 

[Ativanivar]

WCB, I have a really bright xenon flashlight and looked down the barrel before I sent it off for evaluation. Looking down the bore, I could see all the way to the face of the breach and see that the back of the shell casing closest to the ejection port was gone. The bullet next in line had been severely compacted with the bullet driven back significantly into the casing. I can't imagine the kind of havoc a round going off in the mag would create.

 

[wcb]

I tried to find it but couldn't; I saw a picture of a 44 magnum revolver that had a double charge go off and it set off the two cartridges next to the one that the firing pin hit from the concussion of the explosion. Since one didn't go off in the magazine and the grip looks like that; no doubt your damn lucky one didn't go off.

 

[Hook686]

I'm interested in a couple of points:

1) Has Wolf acknowledge error by them, negligence ?

2) If not, how does one PROVE that it was a factory round, and not a reload ?

All I'm thinking is I've never had a factory round KA-BOOM ! Sounds scary. I'm glad the OP is OK. A real bummer about the pistol. I hope he at least ends up with a new pistol.

Folks seem more comfortable with lawyers in a case like this, than with ACLU lawyers. I can never understand why.

 

[wcb]

I can't imagine in this case needing a lawyer at all. Seems the ammunition guys admit responsibility. Just send them the gun with proof of shipping and wait for the new gun. Let them take it apart and find their residue. A lawyer will jut take half of the proceeds for doing what you could do any way. Now I could see if someones hand was blown off or something.

 

[Ativanivar]

1) Has Wolf acknowledge error by them, negligence ?

Yes, they requested I send the pistol to Kimber for evaluation, and then let them know the repair or replacement cost. They were very customer oriented when we spoke. The pistol is on it's way to Kimber, and hopefully they'll respond in a reasonable amount of time.

2) If not, how does one PROVE that it was a factory round, and not a reload ?

I don't think you can reload the steel cases, and also I think there's an issue with primers, too. In any event, the casing and powder residue probably suffice? An analysis, I think, would determine the veracity of the claim.

All I'm thinking is I've never had a factory round KA-BOOM !

Good! It's more excitement than one needs.

 

[1911Tuner]

A squib wont eject the brass and load another round so a squib would have had to be the first round then nothing would have loaded behind it.

Oh, yes it can. If there's as much as a grain of powder in the case, the squib will stick the bullet far enough into the barrel to let another round chamber...the slide will cycle...and it'll chamber one.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

A squib wont eject the brass and load another round so a squib would have had to be the first round then nothing would have loaded behind it.

Oh, yes it can. If there's as much as a grain of powder in the case, the squib will stick the bullet far enough into the barrel to let another round chamber...the slide will cycle...and it'll chamber one.

Yep, I have seen it happen twice. The last time was ROing for a series of drills when the shooter had a squib that actually resulted in the slug protruding from the end of the barrel. Spotting the obstruction yelling cease-fire before the shooter lined up with the next target in the sequence and fired was fortunate.

On disassembly to remove the squib, the mag was removed and the slide racked to clear the chamber and sure enough, a viable round popped out of the chamber.

The ammo, as would be expected, was reloads.

 

[wcb]

You're posting in a thread titled " Overloaded Factory Ammo and Damaged Gun" and make a post including this statement? I've reloaded for about 35 years and the only improperly charged ammunition I've ever chambered had a brand name on the box. So I would hold my affections closer to the title of this thread.

The ammo, as would be expected, was reloads.

As far as the squib issue; I understand a squib to be a cartridge with NO powder in it and only the primer fires which will put a bullet in the barrel but not rack a slide (at least in my experience).

 

[WayneConrad]

Oh, never mind

 

[TX1911fan]

Actually, one of the gun rags just ran an article showing that, while more difficult, reloading steel cases can be done. I think he used Wolf as the example.

 

[doc540]

Just curious, at what point, if any, would anyone here involve an attorney if the situation had been more severe?

Personal injury?

Bruising, stitches?

Temporary loss of use of a hand or hands?

Permanent injury to hands, face, eyes?

I'm just curious if the KB had been worse at what point does anyone thinks legal recourse would have become appropriate?

Where are you on the spectrum from "stuff happens-live with it" to "Jackpot Justice!"?

 

[Hook686]

I would consider medical costs, or financial loss of future earnings, if injured to that extent, valid reasons to consult an attorney, if the company was not willing to arbitrate.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

As far as the squib issue; I understand a squib to be a cartridge with NO powder in it and only the primer fires which will put a bullet in the barrel but not rack a slide (at least in my experience).

From the wiki folks...

A squib load, also known as a squib round, pop and no kick, or just a squib, is a firearms malfunction in which a fired projectile does not have enough force behind it to exit the barrel, and thus becomes stuck.

Whether or not the squib cycles the slide is immaterial to the definition of a squib. You can have squibs in revolvers.

A squib may be produced by a powderless load, or a load with not enough powder to develop sufficient pressure, from bad powder, or failure to ignite the powder properly.

Here is a great example...
http://www.thegunzone.com/squib.html

 

[wcb]

Whether or not the squib cycles the slide is immaterial to the definition of a squib. You can have squibs in revolvers.

A squib may be produced by a powderless load, or a load with not enough powder to develop sufficient pressure, from bad powder, or failure to ignite the powder properly.

Here is a great example...
http://www.thegunzone.com/squib.html

I wasn't saying the definition of squib had anything to do with the slide cycling; I was saying that a squib doesn't have the energy to cause a slide cycle as a properly loaded round would. In fact the example you use; http://www.thegunzone.com/squib.html shows a bullet just about out of the barrel and the text says:

"Fortunately, this particular SIG-Sauer shooter has his act together, instinctively knew "something was wrong" and resisted the impulse to fire another round.
124-grain FMJ. Classic squib: sounded like a cap gun, slide didn't cycle, lots of smoke.
The bullet, as you can see from these pictures, made it as far as the muzzle but didn't quite have what it took to clear the barrel. Improperly loaded "factory-new" ammunition. (Images courtesy of Todd Louis Green.)"

I fully understand a squib isn't unique to pistols but this thread is and that's why I referenced the slide not fully racking. The example you quote demonstrates a bullet within a half inch of dropping at the shooters feet and the rack didn't slide.

 

[jeff-10]

Those 1911 kabooms are nasty. Thats why I stick to Glocks.

 

[wcb]

Those 1911 kabooms are nasty. Thats why I stick to Glocks.

So you're saying when a double charged cartridge is fired in a Glock, it has no adverse effect on the gun? Yea right......

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I wasn't saying the definition of squib had anything to do with the slide cycling; I was saying that a squib doesn't have the energy to cause a slide cycle as a properly loaded round would.

And yet I have seen it happen.

 

[1911Tuner]

Depending on a couple of variables, the primer alone can move the slide a surprising distance.

Slide mass...Recoil spring...The particular brand of primers, or lot variations within the same brand. Case capacity can have an effect. Even a small variation in the size of the flash hole can make a difference.

Nothing means everything.

Everything means something.

 

[1911Tuner]

Just as an afterthought on the practical definition of "squib" load as opposed to the purely technical definition.

I think that we can probably agree that it would mean any round that fails to get the bullet out of the muzzle...regardless of whether it has any powder in the case. If it exits the muzzle, it then becomes a light, or "powderpuff" round.

I've fired .38 wadcutters that were so slow that a major-league pitcher could almost outrun one to the target with a baseball...and they could be visually tracked every inch of the way.

Of course, this will vary with barrel length. A powder puff load in a 4-inch barrel could possibly become a squib in an 8-inch barrel...and vice-versa.

Shall we move on?