Overloaded Factory Ammo and Damaged Gun

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An observation on Wolf ammo from my last trip to the range.

I went thru 100 rounds of Wolf 9mm and .45ACP (total of 200 rounds) last time I was at the range.

Usually we just leave our casings and the range staff sweeps them up en masse (no tools to pick up casings are provided to us).

But this time I was shooting at the end of the day, and didn't feel right making an employee stay late to pick up after me, so I picked them all up by hand.

I noticed 5 or 6 of the Wolf casings were split down the side, from the head almost clear down to the base. Now, two of those I had clearly stepped on :p

But I'm concerned out the others...should I be? I haven't shot enough to know if a split case is a common occurrence...
 
Split cased pose no real danger but for pistol, you cant reload them since they need to grip the bullet sufficiently to auto load and handle the shock of previous shots when in the magazine. I used to reload split cases for wheel guns but if you're looking for accuracy, the crimps suck. The blast of the powder is contained by the chamber anyway, the shell basically just holds the components together.

Again, this information goes right out the window for accuracy and you cant reload split shells for auto pistols.

No doubt nit pickers will slam me for this post but there is no danger in spit cases. Your Wolf shells splitting are definitely a testimony of the quality of the ammunition.
 
wcb said:
Split cased pose no real danger but for pistol, you cant reload them since they need to grip the bullet sufficiently to auto load and handle the shock of previous shots when in the magazine. I used to reload split cases for wheel guns but if you're looking for accuracy, the crimps suck. The blast of the powder is contained by the chamber anyway, the shell basically just holds the components together.
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Right-o. Thanks for reassuring me on the split cases. The chamber holds the pressure, but then what is the "case failure" that previous posters have talked about?

I always thought case failure only mattered if the breech face was not in contact with the case and chamber. If everything is "locked together" so to speak, case failure doesn't matter.

Therefore, case failure can only occur when the breech face does not come fully forward?

wcb said:
Your Wolf shells splitting are definitely a testimony of the quality of the ammunition.
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Agreed.
 
Right-o. Thanks for reassuring me on the split cases. The chamber holds the pressure, but then what is the "case failure" that previous posters have talked about?

I always thought case failure only mattered if the breech face was not in contact with the case and chamber. If everything is "locked together" so to speak, case failure doesn't matter.

Therefore, case failure can only occur when the breech face does not come fully forward?
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Honestly, I dont know about "Case Failure". All I know is when I fired a 357 Magnum/ 38 Special, I would reload shells that were split 1/3 of the way to the base of the shell just for plinking ammo. If they are split over 1/2 way I pitch them for sure.

I once accidentally reloaded a 45 ACP that was split and the bullet wouldn't stay in position; now that can be dangerous if you fire it, but it's obvious since the bullet moves so easily in a split 45.
 
Something I was wondering:

Are the Kimber 1911s that are chambered for 9mm built proportianately smaller, slimmer, etc. than their 1911s that are chambered for .45 ACP? If they're the same size, weight, beefiness, etc. of a standard 1911 I'm surprised that a 9mm round would do that much damage. Keep in mind, if the guns are the same, this is the same design that stands up to 10mm, .460 Rowland, .400 CorBon, etc.

Hell, what'd they load that round with, C4?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm another advocate of "like for like". Commie ammo in commie guns, American ammo in American guns. I shoot Wolf 7.62x39 in my MAK-90 and my SKS's and their 9x18 in my Makarov. I've never even bought any of their ammo in any other calibers.

BTW, my Olympic AR owner's manual didn't mention Wolf by name, but it did warn against using any lacquer-coated ammo in it. I don't think Wolf does that anymore, but just for the record.

Glad you're OK, Ativa.

:)
 
Honestly, I dont know about "Case Failure". All I know is when I fired a 357 Magnum/ 38 Special, I would reload shells that were split 1/3 of the way to the base of the shell just for plinking ammo. If they are split over 1/2 way I pitch them for sure.
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I mean no offense in making this post but I can say unequivocally that this is not sound advice for anyone getting into reloading. Someone may get away without a problem but they are certainly opening up the possibility for real problems. This is an unsafe practice. Brass prices are through the roof but it is not high enough to resort to this.
 
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s2Brutus: Are the Kimber 1911s that are chambered for 9mm built proportianately smaller, slimmer, etc. than their 1911s that are chambered for .45 ACP? If they're the same size, weight, beefiness, etc. of a standard 1911 I'm surprised that a 9mm round would do that much damage. Keep in mind, if the guns are the same, this is the same design that stands up to 10mm, .460 Rowland, .400 CorBon, etc.
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Yes, the 1911's are the same size despite the caliber difference. The recoil spring is much lighter, though. About 14 lbs vs. 22lbs. Also, the barrel is obviously thicker, and that may or may not have been an advantage in this situation. The barrel appears to not have bulged, but until the slide is removed it's hard to say with complete certainty.
 
I mean no offense in making this post but I can say unequivocally that this is not sound advice for anyone getting into reloading. Someone may get away without a problem but they are certainly opening up the possibility for real problems. This is an unsafe practice. Brass prices are through the roof but it is not high enough to resort to this.
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Like I said, someone would give me grief for saying it. If you read my post again, I didn't recommend going out and finding split cases for optimum reloading; I said it isn't dangerous if the case isn't split all the way down the side and only works in wheel guns. The chamber contains the explosion pressure not the brass; the brass is just as though it's a gasket. And as far as gasses leaking out, if anybody thinks when a cartridge goes off the chamber is never touched by gasses, they are in la, la land.

Listen, I dont and never did load a box of split cases, I just dont throw them out till they are IMO too split and use them for plinking with no threat of danger. If people are so paranoid of a split case causing them personal harm, then they have no business reloading at all since eventually cases split when you shoot them.

So what do you say we give up the hair splitting, split case fight right now? And you're right, no reloading manuals instruct you to load split cases but not because it so dangerous but because we live in suchn a litigious society and being paranoid over safe is the rule to stay out of product liability courts.
 
As I stated, I mean no disrespect and certainly didn't intend to cause you grief. It's easy to say someone will be a "nit picker" and "slam" you for information that you post. It's a can't lose scenario when you make a post and because you add a disclaimer of sorts, no one should challenge what is written. In essence it looks like you called it and any response appears to be petty. At the end of the day it's still a poor reloading technique and diminishes the margin of safety in reloading quality ammo. I would just as soon have that margin be as large as possible. It's just not good information to pass along. There is always someone who is just starting to reload that says: "hey ya know I was reading...". Of course any response contrary to this post is just "nit picking". :D Your results may vary.

So what do you say we give up the hair splitting, split case fight right now? And you're right...
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If you didn't want a little "hair splitting" controversy you wouldn't have ended your last post the way you did. I'm just helping you out and of course I'm right. :cool:
 
gas cutting

oh, like the Challenger?

troubles aplenty without starting out on the wrong side of good components
 
Kimber Update

All, Ann with Kimber called late yesterday afternoon and left a voice mail that they'd completed their evaluation. I called this morning and spoke with her. She relayed that in addition to the obvious exterior damage, they found:

  • That a large chunk of barrel is missing.
  • The feedramp was blown off
  • The frame is cracked
  • There's major scoring on the inside of the frame
  • I'm very lucky
  • The pistol is completely beyond repair
The firearm is being returned to me. Since it will be in pieces, I'm really curious to see the extent of the internal damage with my own eyes. I'll post pics once it arrives.

PS: I've always heard bad things about Kimber's customer service. I called a total of three times. On two occassions the telephone was answered by a person, and the one time I left a VM, I received a prompt reply. My experience with their CS has been contrary to all that I'd heard in the past. In addition, in one conversation I was told it would be "3 to 4 weeks" before they would have a chance to review the pistol. In actuality, it was less than two weeks.
 
PS: I've always heard bad things about Kimber's customer service. I called a total of three times. On two occassions the telephone was answered by a person, and the one time I left a VM, I received a prompt reply. My experience with their CS has been contrary to all that I'd heard in the past. In addition, in one conversation I was told it would be "3 to 4 weeks" before they would have a chance to review the pistol. In actuality, it was less than two weeks.
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Kimber having CS problems is a bunch of bunk; their Customer Service is excellent. I've experience great service just as you have.

ati,

they may have wanted to be very nice to you since you may have a pending lawsuit
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How could Kimber possibly be sued for an ammunition manufacturer selling a bad load? Maybe some ambulance chasing hungry scam of a lawyer might take your money to file a suit but wouldn't make it past the front door success wise. Kimber took care of him because they take care of their customers not because they fear being sued for someone else's bad ammunition.
 
ati,

they may have wanted to be very nice to you since you may have a pending lawsuit
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Paintball, Kimber has no culpability. The round was the cause, the damage to the pistol was the effect

WCB: How could Kimber possibly be sued for an ammunition manufacturer selling a bad load?
Click to expand...

Exactly.

PittsPilot: Have you heard from Wolf?
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Yes, Wolf contacted me following an email I'd sent them initially. In addition, the product manager at Midway contacted them on my behalf as well. I had a follow-up conversation today with their customer service to confirm what action needs to be taken on my part now that Kimber has evaluated the pistol.
 
now there is an argument for buying an expensive pistol. all that damage, and you survived fine. i wonder how you would have made out with a lesser quality gun. you were very fortunate not to get seriously hurt. i have never bought, or shot any wolf ammo. it always just seemed like bad stuff. i am sure that in the overwhelming majority of the cases, it shoots ok. i just have a hard time buying things with steel cases and or jackets. steel is what the gun is made of, not the ammo! anyway. wolf should send you a check for a new pistol. anything less is not acceptable. i hope they step up to the plate and do right by you. when you talk to them, make sure that you tell them about any special things that have been done to your gun, and any accessories you had on it that were also destroyed. this whole mess is on their shoulders, it SOUNDS like poor quality control to me. i know it COULD happen to any mfgr. but this time it happened to them. i hope they inspect their records and at least have a recall of any ammo in the lot # that your ammo came from. i would hate to see this happen to another shooter. they may not be so lucky.
 
New Pictures

Below are some pictures I took last night. Kimber overnighted the pistol to me, at their expense.

The breech of the barrel shows the extent of what occurred. The back end of the case was blown out, and can be clearly seen.

P1060771.jpg
P1060773.jpg
P1060792.jpg
P1060793.jpg
P1060798.jpg
 
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With that shell welded to the end of the barrel, it should be real easy to get a check from Wolf.

You're a lucky guy to have hands.
 
As a Glocker I could jump all over this thread, and post it on other boards but I'm not. Glockers don't do that. This goes to show you KB's are not just attributed to Glocks. Smart gun people know this.
Click to expand...

2 new attributes to help seperate GLOCK from the pack
#1 - Glocks make you polite
#2 - if you are dumb, glocks will make you smart

I got a question, if a "Glocker" would post this on another board, and/or gloat, what would you do? Decend on his home and take all his glocks back? Rip his Glock patch off his shoulder?


Thanks for the wonderful pictures.

Regarding how midway is at fault, sometimes legal process requires certain steps. IF the OP was interested in a lawsuit, sometimes it is necessary to sue A and then A turns around and sues B. Of course lawyers like to draw up laws that call for such action, more lawyers getting billable hours.

I hope Wolf coughs up a new Kimber for you
 
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