Owning foreign war guns...
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Overall it doesn't bother me. I must admit that the concentration camp Mitchell's Mausers bothered me a bit, but less about the rifle itself but more about who would go out of their way to own such a thing. But, I suppose it's just another way to "never forget".
I think that "the rifle is just a tool" is short-sighted. A lot of the replies smack of making excuses.
A war artifact carries heavy symbolism with it, and to deny that is dishonest, especially since so many are bought and sold specifically for their symbolic value. It may not mean anything to you personally, but it's not "just a tool" in the world. It carries context with it, even if you personally don't choose to look at that context. That context is not intrinsic to the object itself, but associated with it by societal history. If you're alone on a desert island and don't care about WW-II, then whatever. But if you're partaking of civilization, you can't entirely divorce the symbolism from the weapon.
If you have a reason for wanting to own that symbolism or carry that piece of memorabilia, then great - own that reason. Don't make excuses for it.
Weapons as war trophies are certainly interesting. However, I think a lot of recent war rifle owners are pretty far removed from the original trophy-takers.
If a 22 year-old kid runs out and fawns over his new WW-II German Mauser, I have to ask why he is so fascinated with Nazi guns. Whether or not I like the answer is secondary to him actually having a true, considered response. He's free to like what he does, but for pete's sake, know why.
My personal feeling, about my own collection (not yours): I might own one such rifle some day, but it'll be after I've got a number of good solid American rifles first, and probably a Garand or M14 too. If the only good rifles were enemy rifles I might feel differently, and I'd be straight about that reason.
Also, the glorification of Nazi artifacts bugs me. The stuff gets elevated to a status that I find very disquieting to see. A captured Mauser or Luger here and there is interesting to me, but the rest I'd rather see it ground in the dirt instead of being elevated to high collector status. It makes worry that I should always be looking over my shoulder in my own country. I'd prefer to have to do that as little as possible.
"Do you own a car?" is a decent analogy.
My take on it: I might buy a German car one day 'cause they make great cars. I WON'T buy a WW-II era German car because it carries too much of the symbolism of the time with it. I wouldn't want to drive around in that cloud or force other people to deal with that cloud as I drive around in public. Does it really make a difference if it's a new BMW vs. a WW-II vintage BMW? I think so, and it does make a difference to me. My parents, on the other hand, would feel differently, and they come to that reaction legitimately.
In fact, here's an example:
German-made factory production spring-powered air rifles are arguably the best. We own two, a sporter and a match rifle. They are recent production, and I'm not bothered a bit. They carry much more olympic context than anything else.
Much of the rest of our hardware was manufactured within 200 miles of where we live, but then again that's New England for ya. ;-)
-Daizee
A war artifact carries heavy symbolism with it, and to deny that is dishonest, especially since so many are bought and sold specifically for their symbolic value. It may not mean anything to you personally, but it's not "just a tool" in the world. It carries context with it, even if you personally don't choose to look at that context. That context is not intrinsic to the object itself, but associated with it by societal history. If you're alone on a desert island and don't care about WW-II, then whatever. But if you're partaking of civilization, you can't entirely divorce the symbolism from the weapon.
If you have a reason for wanting to own that symbolism or carry that piece of memorabilia, then great - own that reason. Don't make excuses for it.
Weapons as war trophies are certainly interesting. However, I think a lot of recent war rifle owners are pretty far removed from the original trophy-takers.
If a 22 year-old kid runs out and fawns over his new WW-II German Mauser, I have to ask why he is so fascinated with Nazi guns. Whether or not I like the answer is secondary to him actually having a true, considered response. He's free to like what he does, but for pete's sake, know why.
My personal feeling, about my own collection (not yours): I might own one such rifle some day, but it'll be after I've got a number of good solid American rifles first, and probably a Garand or M14 too. If the only good rifles were enemy rifles I might feel differently, and I'd be straight about that reason.
Also, the glorification of Nazi artifacts bugs me. The stuff gets elevated to a status that I find very disquieting to see. A captured Mauser or Luger here and there is interesting to me, but the rest I'd rather see it ground in the dirt instead of being elevated to high collector status. It makes worry that I should always be looking over my shoulder in my own country. I'd prefer to have to do that as little as possible.
"Do you own a car?" is a decent analogy.
My take on it: I might buy a German car one day 'cause they make great cars. I WON'T buy a WW-II era German car because it carries too much of the symbolism of the time with it. I wouldn't want to drive around in that cloud or force other people to deal with that cloud as I drive around in public. Does it really make a difference if it's a new BMW vs. a WW-II vintage BMW? I think so, and it does make a difference to me. My parents, on the other hand, would feel differently, and they come to that reaction legitimately.
In fact, here's an example:
German-made factory production spring-powered air rifles are arguably the best. We own two, a sporter and a match rifle. They are recent production, and I'm not bothered a bit. They carry much more olympic context than anything else.
Much of the rest of our hardware was manufactured within 200 miles of where we live, but then again that's New England for ya. ;-)
-Daizee
theotherwaldo
Member
I have no problem with the collection or use of any hand weapon. Weapons are just tools. They do nothing on their own.
I have no problem with collecting or using trophies taken from defeated enemies, no matter the atrocities committed by those enemies.
I do have a problem with people carrying those weapons and items as a banner, carrying on the original acts and beliefs of heinous enemies.
It's not the weapon, it's what you make it mean to yourself and to those around you.
I have no problem with collecting or using trophies taken from defeated enemies, no matter the atrocities committed by those enemies.
I do have a problem with people carrying those weapons and items as a banner, carrying on the original acts and beliefs of heinous enemies.
It's not the weapon, it's what you make it mean to yourself and to those around you.
Lonestar.45
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I wouldn't let it bother me. Besides, you have no way of knowing if it killed Americans, was dropped once and surrendered, or never even made it's way out of the factory before the war was over and it was captured. American GI's sure didn't have a problem keeping them as war trophies. Why should you?
leadcounsel
member
I often think - "if only this rifle could talk and share its' tales..."
The truth is you have no idea about where the rifle has been or what the user(s) did.
Maybe the rifle was dropped by the 'enemy' and captured and used by a 'friendly' temporarily to save his fellow Soldiers. Or maybe it was used to execute unarmed women and children. You just never know.
Death is part of life...
As others said, we own cars made by our one-time enemies. And the same is true with all sorts of modern goods from computers to tennis shoes to products tested on animals... death is death is death... In a way, I'm honored to own ANY weapons that were used in conflict because presumably their user was brave enough to fight for his country or beliefs - and the weapon is filled with history - rather than a weapon that is simply stamped out and sent to a gun store to be bought and put into someones' safe and rarely shot.
But what I do know is that they are filled with history and if you don't want 'em, sell 'em to me...
The truth is you have no idea about where the rifle has been or what the user(s) did.
Maybe the rifle was dropped by the 'enemy' and captured and used by a 'friendly' temporarily to save his fellow Soldiers. Or maybe it was used to execute unarmed women and children. You just never know.
Death is part of life...
As others said, we own cars made by our one-time enemies. And the same is true with all sorts of modern goods from computers to tennis shoes to products tested on animals... death is death is death... In a way, I'm honored to own ANY weapons that were used in conflict because presumably their user was brave enough to fight for his country or beliefs - and the weapon is filled with history - rather than a weapon that is simply stamped out and sent to a gun store to be bought and put into someones' safe and rarely shot.
But what I do know is that they are filled with history and if you don't want 'em, sell 'em to me...
Noban
Member
A gun is an inanimate object. Period. Any deviation from that premise and you give credence to the hysterical lefties who say guns are evil.
If you just can't get your arms around this, allow me to lessen your anxiety about that Mauser. You have it because the son of a bitch who used it is taking a dirt nap in Russia.
If you just can't get your arms around this, allow me to lessen your anxiety about that Mauser. You have it because the son of a bitch who used it is taking a dirt nap in Russia.
WardenWolf
member
I own 3 war guns: an M1 Carbine, a 1943 Mosin Nagant, and an Arisaka 99 produced around 1941. The Arisaka, I'm positive, was used for some less-than-humane things.
I mentioned the Arisaka was produced in 1941. What I did not yet mention was where and when it entered my family's possession: Okinawa, 1945. This gun went through the entire Pacific war, and ended up on an island where the Japanese were effectively making their last stand. If any gun was used to commit atrocities, that one was.
Does it bother me? No. It's something I occasionally think about, though. I know what the Japanese did, how they treated native people on the islands they conquered, and even POW's. For that rifle to be in service that long, it had to have seen a lot. I'll never know all the things that rifle saw, and perhaps it's for the better. But no, it doesn't bother me. It's a good rifle. I have to admire the quality and features of these early Type 99's, and laugh when I realize Japanese soldiers, who averaged about 5 foot flat, were using a rifle that is considered large even for us today. Nonetheless, it was a good design, just one that was completely outclassed by the semi-automatics we wielded.
I mentioned the Arisaka was produced in 1941. What I did not yet mention was where and when it entered my family's possession: Okinawa, 1945. This gun went through the entire Pacific war, and ended up on an island where the Japanese were effectively making their last stand. If any gun was used to commit atrocities, that one was.
Does it bother me? No. It's something I occasionally think about, though. I know what the Japanese did, how they treated native people on the islands they conquered, and even POW's. For that rifle to be in service that long, it had to have seen a lot. I'll never know all the things that rifle saw, and perhaps it's for the better. But no, it doesn't bother me. It's a good rifle. I have to admire the quality and features of these early Type 99's, and laugh when I realize Japanese soldiers, who averaged about 5 foot flat, were using a rifle that is considered large even for us today. Nonetheless, it was a good design, just one that was completely outclassed by the semi-automatics we wielded.
FreuderLocks
Member
No I don't feel weird about it, especially since I plan to be a Historian. It's always pretty cool when someone is talking about 'that cool russian gun' in the video game or 'i saw this.....on TV but I cant figure out what it was" to pull out your Mosin or Mauser and say, 'This one'?
Aside from the cool factor, I like the historical aspect of the things. I don't personally care who it killed, though I may be concerned as to why. The historical aspect of these weapons far outweighs any 'weird feelings' I may get from them, instead it heightens the excitement and interest of even being in their presence.
-FL
Aside from the cool factor, I like the historical aspect of the things. I don't personally care who it killed, though I may be concerned as to why. The historical aspect of these weapons far outweighs any 'weird feelings' I may get from them, instead it heightens the excitement and interest of even being in their presence.
-FL
Of course it is.
*people* animate it. "people kill people, guns don't kill people."
That's why in the context of a society that brings meaning or historical memory to these things, you have to be aware of what that context IS. It DOES exist - in the collective minds of the people who see/use/experience it. To deny that we are part of and influenced by historical memory is to deny the possibility of understanding *why* the gun grabbers are so hysterical. The symbolism IS real - there isn't just one mythology, but behavior IS influenced by it, be it right, wrong, accurate, or inaccurate.
You can reduce grabber paranoia if you can address their concerns, and you can't do that without acknowledging and understanding them. Acknowledging and understanding them is not at all the same as giving ground. Know your enemy.
That same historical memory fuels the entire 2nd ammendment recovery "movement". A large part of the culture war on this issue is about who's mental construct is more "right". It's fairly clear to me that the Pro 2A memory is vastly more accurate than that of the opposition. But you'll never convince them of it without understanding *why* they're so fearful. That fear typically doesn't happen on an individual basis.
My point being, the history and symbolism that these war rifles "carry", is actually carried by people, not the object itself. However, that's irrelevant when considering the effect it has on your own or other people's reaction to these objects. The effect is the same.
I'll try to illustrate my point:
A friend gives me a gift, meaning well: "I've brought you this nice knife. It happens to be the one that killed your grandfather."
Some people might like that as a gift.
I would consider it terribly insensitive, particularly the presentation. I don't want to have such an object, and would be offended that a friend would know me so little as to think so. And since there are OTHER knives of quality he could have chosen, why THIS one? Clearly it's the people who bring the meaning to the object rather than the object itself, but the effect on the people is the same. That has to be acknowledged before you can get past it.
-Daizee
It might be worth noting at this point that Israel owned and used thousands of German K98 rifles for years. They rechambered them in 7.62X51 because that was a NATO standard round.
My hunch is that virtually all those rifles were used in combat during WWII, so I guess it's safe to say that the IDF has a strong sense of irony, if not justice.
Tim
My hunch is that virtually all those rifles were used in combat during WWII, so I guess it's safe to say that the IDF has a strong sense of irony, if not justice.
Tim
The first aircraft shot down by the Israeli Airforce was shot down by Bf-109 version. That should give you something to think about.
If you consider that is ok to own a rifle that kiled a human being, but is not ok to own a rifle that killed an American, then you value nation above humanity.
This is the reason we are still killing eachother like primates.
we value ideologies above human life.
If you consider that is ok to own a rifle that kiled a human being, but is not ok to own a rifle that killed an American, then you value nation above humanity.
This is the reason we are still killing eachother like primates.
we value ideologies above human life..
Then never buy or own the following:
M1, M1A, M16, M14, 303, all handguns, and so on as far back as you want to go. And forget about flintlocks, swords, knives, bow's, arrows, black powder cannons, I'm sure there's many more. Oh and by the way, don't get any fireworks either, those were used by the Chinese extensively as a killing tool.
What ever history or providence associated with any weapon is the "who" not the instrument itself. It's part of human history.
briansmithwins
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It's just a piece of steel and wood.
You might as well decide to never drive on the Interstate because Hitler invented the Autobahn.
BSW
You might as well decide to never drive on the Interstate because Hitler invented the Autobahn.
BSW
In the case of Bringback Mausers and Arisakas they might have killed an American yes.. But their last Foreign user was most likely deactivated by the Vet that brought them home. That makes them War Trophies for our side if you wanna look at it antoher way.
Guns are just tools!
Guns are just tools!
I'm half Irish,and I would have LOVED to have scored one of those Irish Lee Enfield No.4's that were coming in a few years back...hell;if they were RIC/RUC rifles;they could conceivably have been used to prune the maternal branch of my family tree( my Uncle brough tmy MOm over here when she was a baby in the '30s...he (like my Dad) cemented his citizenship by serving in WW2.and getting an Arisaka ,K98k,or a P38 would not bug me either.
I am ex Army,and owning/shooting Cobloc gear poes me with no moral crisis....I guess we all have our own comfort level RE what we can or cannot accept.
I am ex Army,and owning/shooting Cobloc gear poes me with no moral crisis....I guess we all have our own comfort level RE what we can or cannot accept.
trekgod3
Member
The range I shoot at does not allow SKS or AK's for that very reason. At least, that's their "official" story. The story I got from an employee was that some yahoo shot a power line with his AK and the electric company would only fix it if the range banned AK's.
RevolvingCylinder
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Only patriots understand. People that are the instruments of evil need to surrender or die in order for good to survive. It's the way things are, have been, and will continue to be. "Following orders" is not an excuse. Evil is evil and those that commit it are responsible for their actions. It's tolerating evil that enables and breeds it.
What does it matter what country you buy your rifle from when our Congress continues to sell a large stake of our economy to China and Russia? I agree that a rifle is just a rifle. It's not rational to treat it like an enemy to our nation or that it's possessed by an evil spirit.
I think there are some good examples that better describe my feelings about why "I" could not own an era piece from these countries. I might have cheapened my posts by not using as many words to describe as to why I feel this way.
If I were to have fought in the war, and received a "battle trophy", maybe that would be different, but I didn't and don't.
I really like the comment about having to watch over our shoulder in our own country. That was really spot on.
If I were to have fought in the war, and received a "battle trophy", maybe that would be different, but I didn't and don't.
I really like the comment about having to watch over our shoulder in our own country. That was really spot on.
skeet king
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I would actually pay more for a bring back
That's a false dichotomy. You're saying all of human history is equally relevant to a single individual at the moment of now. I would argue that the further back into history you go, the less weight/character/damage is carried by the culture with respect to specific events, assuming those events have been fully concluded. WW-II is my parents' and grandparents' experience. That's pretty fresh.
This argument sufferes from a severe lack of granularity.
The question is about allied vs. enemy weapons. If Hitler paved my street I might live on a different one.
Actually maybe that's a good reason TO care about where you buy your rifle. Of course the things aren't posessed. That would be the feelings of a paranoic. It can still leave a bad taste in the mouth. Assuming that all negative reactions to weapons are due to misplaced anthropomorphism is oversimplistic.
nwilliams
Member
nope
Don't you remember? Guns don't kill people, people kill people!
Don't you remember? Guns don't kill people, people kill people!
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