Owning foreign war guns...
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mickeydim468
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Sam,
I completely disagree. I never said I thought you shouldn't own one. The fact that I "CHOOSE" not to own one myself in no way is an attempt to govern your choice. I just tried to explain why "I" would never own one, and offered the assumption that if you were in my shoes, maybe you would feel the same way!
Shoot your Mousers and enjoy them. I won't. Daizee and I, I think, are about on the same page, with the OP. No where in our posts have we said that we think you should not have the right to own these guns. We have given you that. Please give us the same courtesy. We have had a different life experience than you have and our choices in our arms reflect that. My life experience has brought me to this conclusion and yours has not. So be it.
Having said that I would like to address the assumption that I may not hold similar views on owning guns.
I believe that any person who is a citizen of this country should be allowed the right to bear arms! I have not mentioned make or model, single shot or automatic, I said arms(this includes bullets). I also never saw anything about registering guns or ammo either so that's out too! This topic is not about that. I would hope that this forum has a majority of members, who hold this belief, and that firearm ownership is our right! And that we should stand up and fight for that right to whatever extent is necessary to protect that right.
I will take it one step further... I believe we should be allowed to own, whatever weapon we can afford to keep, and supply with ordinance, so that we may offer up a proper fight, if we do in fact, have to come to blows with our government. If they get F22 raptors we should be allowed to have them too, if we can afford them. Period! This is truly what the second amendment is all about! Being able to protect our citizens from a corrupt government, if all other means of changing the government fails, through negotiations, and the democratic process. If you want to KEEP your guns, then get more active and spread the word to everyone you know to get out and vote. Teach people about gun ownership and the 2A and finally vote out those who are anti gun or anti 2A. It's that simple.
I hope I made myself very clear this time!
Mikey!
Ignition Override
Member
Easy you guys....these are just electronic words.
Nobody knows our faces or names, with few exceptions. And to the original question-no. I would enjoy a P-38 handgun from WW2, but would not want to spend a large chunk, then keep it mostly stored, in order to avoid more blemishes. And many of these handguns/rifles were only carried around behind the front. We will never know about all but a few of them. These questions and ideas are not directed at anybody, but they are just something to contemplate.
It is finally ironic to read that instead of 'Commie gun' this or 'Commie gun' that, there is a question raised about those used by the Third Reich. Also ironic that similar topics on the Internet don't ever mention rifles in Austrian or Hungarian hands during WW 1, in which a vast number of US and other allied soldiers died, not just on the other side, or in the hands of Italians in WW2. Remember Mussolini and the Axis?
I have a friend from Essen (home of Krupp AG which provided so many of their weapons), Germany, whose father fought with the SS in Finland in WW2. Ralf was born long after the war and along with the fact that I would never reproach anybody about what a relative did in that war, he never reproached me about how many tens of thousands of their civilians-including huge numbers of women and children-died as a result of our carpet bombing strategy to cripple their industrial output and logistics. And this was not just in Germany (also railway yards, factories in occupied cities in Nederlands, Belgium, France...). Just by reading OUR history books, it is not difficult to realize that we were looked at as the cruel, totally heartless aggressors by schoolchildren and housewives in Hamburg, Essen, Stuttgart and all of their other cities (plus Klagenfurt, Wiener Neustadt, Vienna, Austria, Bologna Italy, to name a few). Our slow, ungainly bomb and high-octane gas laden bombers, among vast numbers of others, were flown by the bravest young men into deadly flak and fighters. Most were only about 19-21. Very difficult for pilots then to even clip on their chutes and make it to a hatch with a plane pulling 2+ positive or negative, partly transverse 'G' forces, which always change. Worse than any nightmare we can imagine.
But should we have asked each crewmember back in the 50s whether he might have killed civilians with those terrible flying machines (the primary flight controls, bomb release levers, fuel selectors, volt/freq./loadmeter indicators, fuel mixture, prop control levers, hydraulic pump switches/reservoirs were guilty) right before we destroyed each aircraft and rifle/handgun used by our Army and Marines? Somebody had to end the reign of terror (in the eyes of the US and allies). Or ask some US, Canadian/British crews about the fiery, diabolical horrors caused in Hamburg, Dresden and numerous Japanese cities? The B-17 was one of many machines produced by Boeing, Consolidated, Martin, De Havilland, Heinkel, Junkers, Messerschmidt, Nakajima and others. One of those could and probably did kill more people (mostly civilians) on one specific mission to a railway yard, than one rifle ever killed. And this was in the day time raids with only scattered cloud cover over the villages and schools by the arms factories and railway yards of Augsburg (Bavaria), Strasbourg (France), Prague (Czecho-) etc.
Therefore, it seems unreasonable to actually connect a bit of precision machinery with the decision to hurt/kill a US, British, Can., Aussie, Belgian, French soldier, French Resistance, Jewish civilians, liberal German civilians etc. But the thoughts have occurred to me over the years.
I've only skimmed over this thread, but Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden and others of their elitist academic ilk would love to use certain ideas created from this topic such as guns with war-like looks being inherently evil (although not intended that way by the OP) in the US Senate. But our "fearless leaders" are a bit busy enjoying their 'honeymoon', spending loads of extra funds on pet projects, and hoping to stop a plausible, looming economic depression, at least for right now, as their "flight" is now on another "career sortie (mission)" between the Initial Point and the Primary Target of being re-elected.
Nobody knows our faces or names, with few exceptions. And to the original question-no. I would enjoy a P-38 handgun from WW2, but would not want to spend a large chunk, then keep it mostly stored, in order to avoid more blemishes. And many of these handguns/rifles were only carried around behind the front. We will never know about all but a few of them. These questions and ideas are not directed at anybody, but they are just something to contemplate.
It is finally ironic to read that instead of 'Commie gun' this or 'Commie gun' that, there is a question raised about those used by the Third Reich. Also ironic that similar topics on the Internet don't ever mention rifles in Austrian or Hungarian hands during WW 1, in which a vast number of US and other allied soldiers died, not just on the other side, or in the hands of Italians in WW2. Remember Mussolini and the Axis?
I have a friend from Essen (home of Krupp AG which provided so many of their weapons), Germany, whose father fought with the SS in Finland in WW2. Ralf was born long after the war and along with the fact that I would never reproach anybody about what a relative did in that war, he never reproached me about how many tens of thousands of their civilians-including huge numbers of women and children-died as a result of our carpet bombing strategy to cripple their industrial output and logistics. And this was not just in Germany (also railway yards, factories in occupied cities in Nederlands, Belgium, France...). Just by reading OUR history books, it is not difficult to realize that we were looked at as the cruel, totally heartless aggressors by schoolchildren and housewives in Hamburg, Essen, Stuttgart and all of their other cities (plus Klagenfurt, Wiener Neustadt, Vienna, Austria, Bologna Italy, to name a few). Our slow, ungainly bomb and high-octane gas laden bombers, among vast numbers of others, were flown by the bravest young men into deadly flak and fighters. Most were only about 19-21. Very difficult for pilots then to even clip on their chutes and make it to a hatch with a plane pulling 2+ positive or negative, partly transverse 'G' forces, which always change. Worse than any nightmare we can imagine.
But should we have asked each crewmember back in the 50s whether he might have killed civilians with those terrible flying machines (the primary flight controls, bomb release levers, fuel selectors, volt/freq./loadmeter indicators, fuel mixture, prop control levers, hydraulic pump switches/reservoirs were guilty) right before we destroyed each aircraft and rifle/handgun used by our Army and Marines? Somebody had to end the reign of terror (in the eyes of the US and allies). Or ask some US, Canadian/British crews about the fiery, diabolical horrors caused in Hamburg, Dresden and numerous Japanese cities? The B-17 was one of many machines produced by Boeing, Consolidated, Martin, De Havilland, Heinkel, Junkers, Messerschmidt, Nakajima and others. One of those could and probably did kill more people (mostly civilians) on one specific mission to a railway yard, than one rifle ever killed. And this was in the day time raids with only scattered cloud cover over the villages and schools by the arms factories and railway yards of Augsburg (Bavaria), Strasbourg (France), Prague (Czecho-) etc.
Therefore, it seems unreasonable to actually connect a bit of precision machinery with the decision to hurt/kill a US, British, Can., Aussie, Belgian, French soldier, French Resistance, Jewish civilians, liberal German civilians etc. But the thoughts have occurred to me over the years.
I've only skimmed over this thread, but Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden and others of their elitist academic ilk would love to use certain ideas created from this topic such as guns with war-like looks being inherently evil (although not intended that way by the OP) in the US Senate. But our "fearless leaders" are a bit busy enjoying their 'honeymoon', spending loads of extra funds on pet projects, and hoping to stop a plausible, looming economic depression, at least for right now, as their "flight" is now on another "career sortie (mission)" between the Initial Point and the Primary Target of being re-elected.
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mickeydim468
Member
My comments were not intended in that way either... I just got a little emotional on this one I guess! Sob!
I guess I have read too many posts on the net in general about how COOL WWII was and how over-glorified some of those posts have been, not on this thread but in general and I sort of ranted... My apologies to all!
Mikey!
Ignition Override
Member
No sweat fellow shooter(s). Call my long speech horse****, Kuhscheisse, wrong, mierda de toro (spanish for stinky stuff from zee boohhl). Makes no difference if somebody needs to say it.
Life is too short. I'm a late-bloomer with guns at age 53 and learn from all of you guys (and a few gals?).
Mickey: As we Americans sometimes hear, we always want to see history cut and dried, far oversimplified in black and white, i.e. "Those are the 'bad guys', those are the 'good guys', Period".
We are seldom told, except in books and on the History Channel, that the main French Resistance consisted of French Communist cells. Awkward but True.
We find the many shades of gray too complex. And in the famous Skoda weapons plant in WW2 Czecho-they were forced to build bombs etc for das Reich, but they sabotoged a few random ignitors in 88 mm shells etc here and there, just to save a few Allied lives. Modern complexity is too much.
Life is too short. I'm a late-bloomer with guns at age 53 and learn from all of you guys (and a few gals?).
Mickey: As we Americans sometimes hear, we always want to see history cut and dried, far oversimplified in black and white, i.e. "Those are the 'bad guys', those are the 'good guys', Period".
We are seldom told, except in books and on the History Channel, that the main French Resistance consisted of French Communist cells. Awkward but True.
We find the many shades of gray too complex. And in the famous Skoda weapons plant in WW2 Czecho-they were forced to build bombs etc for das Reich, but they sabotoged a few random ignitors in 88 mm shells etc here and there, just to save a few Allied lives. Modern complexity is too much.
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mickeydim468
Member
I too am a late bloomer. I am 41. I am still learning too! I have owned a rifle since I was 16, but I bought my first gun only a month or so ago. So, I am learning too.
Mikey!
mickeydim468
Member
Ignition,
You see part of my problem was that I was born to an older man of 45 that only lived until I was age 16. I was really never told any of the adult tales of the war, I was only told the watered down kid friendly tales. I guess the leave it to beaver lifestyle of teaching me, that my parents did, left me very idealistic. If one is good, then the other must be bad. I hold my dad in a higher reverence than he probably deserves, yet, I can't help it because that is the only dad I had, and I never got to know him as a man. Maybe my views of things would have been different had I known him while in my manhood years. Because I believe my dad was good then the other side must be bad. That is the way I was brought up! That coupled with the history that was taught during the 70's and early 80's in schools portrayed this very sentiment. It is only now that I have grown up that I have started to learn more history. I am new to the learning curve of the history as well. I have been busy trying to raise a family and provide them the necessities in life and it has only been recently, that this became an easier task for me. I finally have more time to research history and read books and do the things that up until now, was unable to do, due to time restraints. Who knows, I may even change my mind, but I don't know!
Mikey!
You see part of my problem was that I was born to an older man of 45 that only lived until I was age 16. I was really never told any of the adult tales of the war, I was only told the watered down kid friendly tales. I guess the leave it to beaver lifestyle of teaching me, that my parents did, left me very idealistic. If one is good, then the other must be bad. I hold my dad in a higher reverence than he probably deserves, yet, I can't help it because that is the only dad I had, and I never got to know him as a man. Maybe my views of things would have been different had I known him while in my manhood years. Because I believe my dad was good then the other side must be bad. That is the way I was brought up! That coupled with the history that was taught during the 70's and early 80's in schools portrayed this very sentiment. It is only now that I have grown up that I have started to learn more history. I am new to the learning curve of the history as well. I have been busy trying to raise a family and provide them the necessities in life and it has only been recently, that this became an easier task for me. I finally have more time to research history and read books and do the things that up until now, was unable to do, due to time restraints. Who knows, I may even change my mind, but I don't know!
Mikey!
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Ignition Override
Member
Mickey: My comment about Americans' desire to hear the grossly over-simplified history was meant for any readers, because we forget about this tendency and our history classes can be short, fragmented and incomplete. Our country is almost as isolated as Australia and this has kept us fairly safe.
At two different times I stayed two nights with a German family in their village in '77 and '81. We once walked over to the grandparents' courtyard (former farm) on the village edge, and Martina (born in about '60) told me matter-of-factly how an Am. bomber had wandered off course from over nearby Karlsruhe and luckily when a bomb fell by the house of her 'Grosseltern', everybody was down in a shelter or elsewhere. It is already like old history to them. It was also strange to see the names of about thirty men from the village who were listed as 'gefallen' in WW1 and 2. Found this stone plaque on my own-and this in just one fairly small Dorf (village), like in the Dutch 'dorp' or English 'thorpe'.
Anyway, maybe shot the old .22 once in twenty two (plus) years, and made first real gun purchase in Oct. '07.
After being married about 14 years, you should have seen the look on my wife's face as I then bought several carbines and lots of ammo.
My condolences for your loss, esp. at such a young age.
At two different times I stayed two nights with a German family in their village in '77 and '81. We once walked over to the grandparents' courtyard (former farm) on the village edge, and Martina (born in about '60) told me matter-of-factly how an Am. bomber had wandered off course from over nearby Karlsruhe and luckily when a bomb fell by the house of her 'Grosseltern', everybody was down in a shelter or elsewhere. It is already like old history to them. It was also strange to see the names of about thirty men from the village who were listed as 'gefallen' in WW1 and 2. Found this stone plaque on my own-and this in just one fairly small Dorf (village), like in the Dutch 'dorp' or English 'thorpe'.
Anyway, maybe shot the old .22 once in twenty two (plus) years, and made first real gun purchase in Oct. '07.
After being married about 14 years, you should have seen the look on my wife's face as I then bought several carbines and lots of ammo.
My condolences for your loss, esp. at such a young age.
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mickeydim468
Member
I have never been able to travel to Europe. Maybe I would have different views. I appreciate that you have shared yours views with me, and your experiences. You have taught me a lot in just a few short posts. I may never make it to Europe, one never knows, but I can still learn.
My wife's jaw all but hit the floor when she heard me say that I had found a gun I wanted to buy and did she want to come along to go get it? I think her Jaw still hurts.
I had not shot my .22lr since I was a kid right after my mom gave me dad's rifle when he died. My wife had some issues with guns with her relatives, while she was growing up, for one reason or another, so she was not very pro-gun, even though she knows gun safety and has even built her own Kentucky long rifle black powder .45 when she was a kid with her mom's help. So, when I mentioned buying a rifle, she was ok, but hesitant.
She did go with me and we did buy the gun, an Enfield .303 No. 4 MK2 made in 1952. and she likes it. She even went out with me the first time I shot it. She didn't get out of the car but she went just the same.
I have since taken her to a gun show in a nearby town and we brought our 14yr old son along and he found my 1917 Remington on some guys table. The whole time I was looking at the Remington, my wife was at another table haggling with the old feller who was selling .303 stripper clips with 5 rounds. She haggled him down to $1.00 for the package and she bought the lot! Must have been 6 boxes of ammo with clips for $15.00 bucks. Women!
She found a gun cabinet at our local gun shop and I picked it up today and tomorrow, she is sending me and my son to the gun club with instructions to not only join the club but sign up for a safety class for me and my son and if they offer an NRA membership, buy one! So, yeah, it's looking good from this angle! She is just mad my older son can't go tomorrow because he has homework.
I don't know what to think!
Mikey!
My wife's jaw all but hit the floor when she heard me say that I had found a gun I wanted to buy and did she want to come along to go get it? I think her Jaw still hurts.
I had not shot my .22lr since I was a kid right after my mom gave me dad's rifle when he died. My wife had some issues with guns with her relatives, while she was growing up, for one reason or another, so she was not very pro-gun, even though she knows gun safety and has even built her own Kentucky long rifle black powder .45 when she was a kid with her mom's help. So, when I mentioned buying a rifle, she was ok, but hesitant.
She did go with me and we did buy the gun, an Enfield .303 No. 4 MK2 made in 1952. and she likes it. She even went out with me the first time I shot it. She didn't get out of the car but she went just the same.
I have since taken her to a gun show in a nearby town and we brought our 14yr old son along and he found my 1917 Remington on some guys table. The whole time I was looking at the Remington, my wife was at another table haggling with the old feller who was selling .303 stripper clips with 5 rounds. She haggled him down to $1.00 for the package and she bought the lot! Must have been 6 boxes of ammo with clips for $15.00 bucks. Women!
She found a gun cabinet at our local gun shop and I picked it up today and tomorrow, she is sending me and my son to the gun club with instructions to not only join the club but sign up for a safety class for me and my son and if they offer an NRA membership, buy one! So, yeah, it's looking good from this angle! She is just mad my older son can't go tomorrow because he has homework.
I don't know what to think!Mikey!
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Funderb
Member
This kind of talk is losing us the debate over the legality of firearms.
lionking
Member
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If one of my guns were to accidently kill someone specially a family member or friend I might not want that particular gun anymore because it would be a constant reminder of what happened,I wouldn't blame the gun but it would be a reminder none the less.
But as far as a firearm carried by a once enemy or enemy that may have killed a countryman or ally or civilian I have no problem owning because I don't know how that particular firearm was used,for all I know it may have been used by the resistance.Some of these firearms were made even before war broke out or assembled by parts after the war.
We have former enemy countries like Czech,Poland,Hungary who have Communist Migs,Hinds and AK's who are member of NATO now.
But as far as a firearm carried by a once enemy or enemy that may have killed a countryman or ally or civilian I have no problem owning because I don't know how that particular firearm was used,for all I know it may have been used by the resistance.Some of these firearms were made even before war broke out or assembled by parts after the war.
We have former enemy countries like Czech,Poland,Hungary who have Communist Migs,Hinds and AK's who are member of NATO now.
If you are squemish about using guns that killed Americans, well, I think Americans are currently being killed by persons using all sorts of American arms. Criminals in this country don't generally care what type of firearm they use on Americans.
I collect Finnish firearms and accesories. I enjoy the history of the Winter War during WW2. Considering the heavy fighting that the Finns did, I have no doubt that many of my firearms were used to kill lots of people. Many of those people were good people who were inducted into the Soviet Army. If you are going to be upset with anything, be upset with the people that started that awful war. My firearms are fun to shoot but they also remind me of war is all about - killing and destroying sometimes, some precious people. They also remind me that they are also used to stop evil people.
I collect Finnish firearms and accesories. I enjoy the history of the Winter War during WW2. Considering the heavy fighting that the Finns did, I have no doubt that many of my firearms were used to kill lots of people. Many of those people were good people who were inducted into the Soviet Army. If you are going to be upset with anything, be upset with the people that started that awful war. My firearms are fun to shoot but they also remind me of war is all about - killing and destroying sometimes, some precious people. They also remind me that they are also used to stop evil people.
I have a problem with it, the AK and 98k are guns that became symbols of evil and as such I dont have one. I do have a Yugo M48 but that's as close to a 98 as im going. I do like the Russian capture 98ks though because 1)it was used to kill Commies 2) it was used to kill Nazis, A win win.
Hammers have killed a lot of people, true. Gun have killed mega millions if not billions, so they win the killing debate. However it is the person not the gun, but gun become a symbol of the person. Ya the 98k is highly collectible and I have no problem with that its just I personally don't think id buy one (unless it was a Russian capture).
Just as the M-16, M-1 and M-14 are symbols of freedom and the good guys, the AKs and 98k are symbols of mass murder and oppression and the bad guys.
Hammers have killed a lot of people, true. Gun have killed mega millions if not billions, so they win the killing debate. However it is the person not the gun, but gun become a symbol of the person. Ya the 98k is highly collectible and I have no problem with that its just I personally don't think id buy one (unless it was a Russian capture).
Just as the M-16, M-1 and M-14 are symbols of freedom and the good guys, the AKs and 98k are symbols of mass murder and oppression and the bad guys.
To each thier own, I wish I knew my Mauser made Luger's history, sadly I got it 3rd hand with no papers. My 98k was made at BRNO in 1945 and likely never saw service and was sold as surplus via mail order in the late 40's early 50's. I know one thing, they shoot really well.
This is so convenient. We are the humans, the good guys, whoever we fight for one reason or another are all evil "gooks" , "terorists", "comies", "japs", "nazis", "red skins", or "imperialist pigs", or "infidels" and on and on. They are all sub human, their tools evil, all their doing is evil and is ok to kill them.
Why we always try to depersonize the other guys in order to kill them?
Are we really so imature that we have to justify to ourself that the other guys are not human and is ok to kill them, is ok to own guns that killed them?
The true is that none of us is perfect. None of us is absolutely good or absolutely bad. There's no nation on this planet that didn't do it's share of bad things.
In history and life, there's no such a thing as black and white. Just a whole lot of shades of grey.
lionking
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As much as I love America and it's principles America has blood stained hands also,politicians and some military folk have commited certain unwarrented bloodshed in America's history also.No country,civilization,government,race,or religion are free from guilt at some point and time.And nothing guarantee's that it couldn't happen in the future.So to say the M16,M14,Garand or whatever American weapon are the "good guns" is kinda wrapping yourself too tight with the flag I think.While the Garand was used for good in WW2,the M16 against the coldwar tommorrow American soldiers might be ordered to mow down American's with a M16 given twisted circumstance.
Yes Germany and Japan commited horrible acts in WW2 and the allies were of just cause and were the good guys,but a weapon design is not a symbol,a flag,a doctrine and the deeds done are the symbols.If....... and that is a big if,America were ever to truely breakdown into chaos and civil war the AK and AR owned by many American's in today's society no doubt would be involved in it,the only thing that would determine whether there was evil or not would be by judging the people or person,not the gun, who used them and for what cause.
Yes Germany and Japan commited horrible acts in WW2 and the allies were of just cause and were the good guys,but a weapon design is not a symbol,a flag,a doctrine and the deeds done are the symbols.If....... and that is a big if,America were ever to truely breakdown into chaos and civil war the AK and AR owned by many American's in today's society no doubt would be involved in it,the only thing that would determine whether there was evil or not would be by judging the people or person,not the gun, who used them and for what cause.
lionking
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My dad met my mom while he was stationed in Germany in the 50's (I'm adopted).My German grandfather was infantry radio operator KIA in Greece,my American grandfather navy.From what my mother told me my grandfather went because he had to,he was not a Nazi supporter.
My mother and grandmother were gentle docile people who endured homelessness,and hardship caught in circumstance of events.When I was a child I had a battleground play set and one time I showed my mother a soldier lying dead included in the play set and I laughed,she was brought to tears,not because it was a toy of a dead Nzi but because it was her father.I feel bad about it to this day,she forgave me after making me realize that was my grandfather I was laughing at.Interestingly that battleground set didn't come with toy dead American soldiers.
My mother and grandmother were gentle docile people who endured homelessness,and hardship caught in circumstance of events.When I was a child I had a battleground play set and one time I showed my mother a soldier lying dead included in the play set and I laughed,she was brought to tears,not because it was a toy of a dead Nzi but because it was her father.I feel bad about it to this day,she forgave me after making me realize that was my grandfather I was laughing at.Interestingly that battleground set didn't come with toy dead American soldiers.
Immigrants of the colonies were actually terrorists to the British in the 1700's. Of course we immigrants were mass killers to the Indians in North America.
Back to the topic. No gun has ever independently killed anyone. And whether you like it or not explosive powder came on the scene less than 2000 yrs ago so gun powder is a drop in the bucket compared to Greeks, Goths, Romans, and so on have the lions share of mass killings.
Back to the topic. No gun has ever independently killed anyone. And whether you like it or not explosive powder came on the scene less than 2000 yrs ago so gun powder is a drop in the bucket compared to Greeks, Goths, Romans, and so on have the lions share of mass killings.
this is a semantic post. buy what you like. i don't see people buying Cadilliac's instead of BMW's or Mercedes because BMW and Mercedes built aircraft engines in WW2. unlike the American car industry, the American gun industry builds products that people actually want, and dream about owning. i suppose i am going to piss off a lot of people with this post. no offence intended just my opinion.
telomerase
Member
Are you squeamish about owning dollars? Lots of your dollars passed through the hands of various dictators, killing millions of civilians.
Inanimate objects don't have moral content.. they're as good or bad as the user.
Inanimate objects don't have moral content.. they're as good or bad as the user.
theotherwaldo
Member
I think that we need to differentiate.
Owning a gun that was used to kill is one thing.
Owning it because it was used to kill is another thing entirely.
Owning a gun that was used to kill is one thing.
Owning it because it was used to kill is another thing entirely.
look at the companies making high end affordable rifles now. most are in germany. who makes winchester rifles now? a company in japan.
those are considered good guns to get for some reason. yet those who say destroy the foreign made war rifles fore they shot us, say nothing about those rifles or that our gun companies are moving overseas now?
nothing wrong with a solid made rifle in a good caliber.
soldiers are quirky. some are more fanatical then others. however we get our own fanatics in the military. hell some certain units require that level of fanatiscm to create a cohesive unit.
you cant put politics between you and a good rifle.
those are considered good guns to get for some reason. yet those who say destroy the foreign made war rifles fore they shot us, say nothing about those rifles or that our gun companies are moving overseas now?
nothing wrong with a solid made rifle in a good caliber.
soldiers are quirky. some are more fanatical then others. however we get our own fanatics in the military. hell some certain units require that level of fanatiscm to create a cohesive unit.
you cant put politics between you and a good rifle.
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