P-09 or H&K USP help please

[Mthib]

Hello everyone. I've searched this forum in the past and it has helped me decide on several firearm purchases. I've been mulling over my next purchase for two weeks and am having a very difficult time deciding between two handguns. I can purchase a new cz p-09 fde for $575 otd or, a new H&K usp 9 full size for $775 otd. I live in a rural area and cannot try either at a range before purchasing. No shops in my state have either in stock. I wear XL gloves, so neither will be too large. I've only owned one handgun, a Glock 21. I want a da/sa. I'm not interested in any other guns.
The handgun will be used primarily for home defense and secondarily limited conceal carry while hiking in adverse conditions/terrain (mud, snow, slip & falls etc) My priorities in order from greatest to least are as follows....

1 Reliability
2 Durability

 

[ny32182]

Both should be very reliable and durable. If you can't at least hold them both beforehand, you are basically just flipping a coin/luck of the draw that you may or may not pick the one that is ergonomically better for you. Also look to see if there is a difference in holster availability for your preferred method of carry... etc.

 

[JTQ]

I suspect the reliability and durability difference would largely be splitting hairs. I'd bet both would be very reliable and durable.

HK has an excellent durability reputation. Their USP 9 was designed for the .40 S&W and then made to work with 9mm which is the opposite of most of their competitors that start with a 9mm gun and try and get it to work with .40S&W, and not always with great success.

I kind of like the USP line, but I'm a little concerned that the USP 9 and USP 40 both use polymer mags. They may be great, but if I were buying a USP, I'd probably pick the USP 45 since it comes with metal mags. I also think the USP's are a little crude. The P2000, HK45, P30, and VP9 seem to have the same durability reputation as the USP, but with a little more elegance.

I don't know much about the CZ P09, but forum member armoredman has one (he's probably owned every CZ made at one time or another ) and he seems to really like it.

 

[Mthib]

Thanks fellas. Hopefully armoredman will chime in. I've searched but there's not a lot of info on the p 09 regarding reliability/durability with a high round count/adverse conditions. The usp has been around so there's a ton of info. I understand that the usp is kind of crude as far as ergos go, but I'm after a purely utilitarian handgun that's built like a tank (da/sa). The glock 21 I had wasn't exactly ergonomic.
I'd rather pay the extra $200 if it is more likely that the usp will be more reliable and durable.

 

[ny32182]

CZ has been building handguns since at least WWII, and the P-09 is the same fundamental design concept as all the others, just with a plastic frame. I wouldn't have any reservations about its ability to shoot lots of rounds with minimal parts breakage.

I have a P-09, and think very highly of it, but have not shot it a lot. I shoot a very similar design (Tanfoglio) at high round counts in competition, and have lots of friends that have shot metal frame CZs to high round counts in competition. The weak points in the classic CZ design are the slide stop, and the trigger return spring. I'd replace both about every 15,000 rounds. The exact dynamics of the P-09 could cause some slight changes here, but overall those are the items I'd have spare parts for (and do).

I don't know what parts break first in the HK, but again, any "reliability and durability" difference is likely extremely minimal to say the least. They are two companies that have been building high quality handguns for decades, and I'd assume both know how to put out a good gun with the modern offerings.

 

[Mthib]

Thanks ny. How about durability? Does the p 09 see/feel well made?

 

[JTQ]

You may want to send a private message (PM) to armoredman and ask him. He may not find this thread within a timeline you prefer.

The glock 21 I had wasn't exactly ergonomic.

If you want a more ergonomic 45, there is the HK45. Here's an endurance test of it. http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027

Here's the little brother P30 http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

When you talk about durability, I think you always need to ask yourself how many rounds do you expect to shoot? Think of the guns you currently own, what is the largest round count any of them have, and has anything broke on that gun.

Those reviews above by Todd Green are from a guy that shoots for a living. The average gun owner won't put 10,000 rounds through any individual gun in their lifetime. We typically don't shoot that much, and we tend to have multiple guns and spread the rounds we do shoot through several guns. Most contemporary guns will not have a problem reaching 10,000 with simple maintenance.

 

[sigarms228]

If reliability and durability is the primary concern I would definitely choose the HK USP. It has been around a lot longer than the P09 and has a proven record of excellence in reliability and durability. Early USPs had some problems with breaking firing pins but that was quite a while back and you are buying new.

I don't know if this applies to the P09 but some users of the P07 have reported rust issues with the barrel chamber and feed ramp. See like below for details including owners response from CZ in post 4.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16543-CZ-P-07-rusting-issue

One thing interesting about the USP is that it is approved by HK to use +P+ ammo.

http://hk-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/USP-Operators-Manual-05312013.pdf

NOTE: In compliance with NIJ Standard—0112.00, currently there are no known
ammunition types that meet the general guidelines set forth in this section that
are not compatible with the USP series pistols. All USPs are approved for use with
+P and +P+ ammunition as it applies to the specific caliber. The use of +P and +P+
ammunition accelerates wear and reduces the service life on the component parts of
any pistol, including the USP series pistols.

 

[Mthib]

Thanks sigarms. That is what I've read. I wish that the p 09 had been out longer or that there were those out there with 10's of thousands of rounds and abuse.

 

[ny32182]

I'm sure if you head over to CZforum you can find some folks that have shot P09's a lot and will know what is likely to break first.

All major offerings from upstanding manufacturers these days are generally reliable and durable. After 5 to 25k rounds, some small parts; springs at least, are likely to wear out or break. Have spare parts. Replace them and keep shooting. Your selection should be about other things that are far more important than whether a firing pin spring will last 20k or 50k rounds:

Ergonomically, does the pistol work with your hand?
Are parts generally available?
Are mags generally available?
Is any aftermarket support you might be interested in available?
Are accessories like holsters that you want for your style of carry available?
etc

 

[legion3]

Well I like the 19 round capacity of the CZ 09 mags

I wish the price of the mags was better.


You can get an 18 round mag for the USP but HK mags are always costly.

For Me I like both gun companies, owned plenty of USP 9's and they are top notch in quality and durability. And I know I could get a better price on a used USP in my area than you would be paying, but my situation is different.

Given the price difference I would go with the CZ, I have faith it would be plenty reliable.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

The USP will be much easier to handle and shoot while wearing gloves in the outdoor conditions you describe thanks to its size and its huge trigger guard (not that the P09 is exactly small!)

 

[JDR]

I suspect the reliability and durability difference would largely be splitting hairs. I'd bet both would be very reliable and durable.

HK has an excellent durability reputation. Their USP 9 was designed for the .40 S&W and then made to work with 9mm which is the opposite of most of their competitors that start with a 9mm gun and try and get it to work with .40S&W, and not always with great success.

I kind of like the USP line, but I'm a little concerned that the USP 9 and USP 40 both use polymer mags. They may be great, but if I were buying a USP, I'd probably pick the USP 45 since it comes with metal mags. I also think the USP's are a little crude. The P2000, HK45, P30, and VP9 seem to have the same durability reputation as the USP, but with a little more elegance.

I don't know much about the CZ P09, but forum member armoredman has one (he's probably owned every CZ made at one time or another ) and he seems to really like it.

I've had a USP 40, I now have a P30 9mm and an HK45. If there ever was a product line that was reliable and durable, HK meets that criteria. I'm missing the logic of the polymer bodied magazines being a detriment to the USP guns, all HK magazines regardless of whether they are polymer or metal-bodied, are both reliable and durable, but they are expensive.

I am familiar with the new & improved P-07 and I like the omega trigger. I would rather have the LEM trigger variant on the USP, but that is strictly my own $0.02

 

[JTQ]

I kind of like the USP line, but I'm a little concerned that the USP 9 and USP 40 both use polymer mags. They may be great, but if I were buying a USP, I'd probably pick the USP 45 since it comes with metal mags.

I'm missing the logic of the polymer bodied magazines being a detriment to the USP guns, all HK magazines regardless of whether they are polymer or metal-bodied, are both reliable and durable, but they are expensive.

I don't know if they are good or bad, just that the USP 9 and USP 40 full size guns are the only guns in the HK line-up that use the poly mags. I suspect if HK, who I think is a fine company, thought that the poly mags were a great idea they would have used them in the other guns in their line up. HK has cranked out a bunch of guns since the USP 9 and USP 40 hit the market and none of their subsequent offerings have used the poly mags. Just an observation.

 

[legion3]

Poly mags are cheaper to make, and HK does not do low price point mags.

Shoot even the USP poly mags are pricey.

 

[capp325]

The USP is a tank. It also has very mild recoil for a polymer pistol thanks to the dual recoil spring setup (HK went back to a single spring on later models like the P30 for the sake of making the gun slimmer).

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I think both guns would work, and hold up just fine. I also wear XL gloves, and CZ's are usually a little small for my hands.

I like HKs myself, but if the CZ fits you, I'd have a hard time deciding.

 

[Mthib]

Thanks a bunch for the suggestions fellas. I appreciate your opinions and experience. I avoided going to the cz and hk forums because its very difficult to be unbiased when you shoot a particular make. I know it would be hard for me anyway.
Last question. Let's say they cost the same, have the same support/aftermarket accessories etc. You practice religiously until you're proficient with it. Which one would you trust more if someone was coming after you or your family? It's a purely hypothetical question, but one that I believe should be asked of a self defense handgun. And no, I am not interested in a revolver

 

[tarosean]

Last question. Let's say they cost the same, have the same support/aftermarket accessories etc.

But they don't, so there is no point in fantasizing. (Sorry to burst your bubble)

I'd go with the CZ all day every day because of the highlighted reason...

Plus

Brand specific forums are a great resource for finding true problems and NOT fanboyism that occurs on generalized forums (like this one).

 

[viking499]

Any particular reason you are looking at the CZ FDE model? The black model can be had easily for under $500.

 

[sigarms228]

have the same support

Well they don't. HK has lifetime warranty and CZ is 5 years.

 

[Mthib]

Tarosean
Thank you. I'm not looking for aftermarket accessories. Not the least bit interested. Holsters are available for both, and so are sights, other than that Im not concerned. Warranty yes, but that won't matter when I need the gun to work, only after it breaks. What if it breaks, ftf/FTE when I need it, that's my soul concern. Which is less likely to do so?

Viking

I was only interested in the FDE because it comes with night sights. Either way, I'll be putting night sights on whichever gun I buy.

 

[tarosean]

Which is less likely to do so?

No telling... Both are mass produced by long time gun manufactures with great reputations. Both have produced lemons and both have many, many arms in the field in civilian and military worlds.

Its a coin flip.. pick one and run with it, or sell it and buy the other one. Ive owned several guns by both manufactures. none ever gave me a problem.

 

[Quick Shot xMLx]

I'd go with the P09. I know some people will disagree with this statement but all HKs aside from the VP9 have bad triggers. At the price point they come in the trigger should be a lot better(if Sig can do it so can HK). Even the LEM is bleh at best. Once Mec-Gar is allowed to pump out Mec-Gar branded mags the P09 mags will be way cheaper. 19 rounds vs 15 rounds, better trigger, better ergos(USP is a brick, mag release is too small), cheaper price, more mods(CGW can make the P09 fantastic).

 

[Zaydok Allen]

The double action pull on an HK is lousy, but the single action is decent enough.