P227 in 10mm?

[Zaydok Allen]

Sig released a 10mm version of the P220.

Has anyone heard if they will release a double stack 10mm P227? I've wanted an all steel 10mm for awhile. I'd prefer higher capacity than the P220 though.

No Glock or EAA suggestions please. Neither interest me.

 

[JTQ]

Well, SIG introduced the P220 in the 1970's, and introduced the 10MM version this year. Would the comparable timeline for the P227 be in another 40 years?

 

[Mainsail]

I think they'd do it with the P320, and I'm hoping the do so soon.

 

[agtman]

Sig released a 10mm version of the P220.
Has anyone heard if they will release a double stack 10mm P227? I've wanted an all steel 10mm for awhile. I'd prefer higher capacity than the P220 though. * * *

While I'm grateful that Sig has dipped its toe, so to speak, into the sometimes icy 10mm pool, it would have made more sense, to me anyway, for Sig to have released its first 10mm on the double-stack platform of the 227 frame - properly beefed up, of course. If Sig can engineer reliable, double-stack mags in .45acp, they can do it in 10mm.

People who are new to the 10mm cartridge are often unaware of the historical design ideas that were intended for a 10mm pistol, as captured in the first one produced, the Bren Ten (yes, regardless of its problems). Specifically on mag capacity, a 10mm semi-auto was intended to split the difference, give-or-take one or two rounds, between the typical 7-8 shot .45 1911 and the typical 15-rd Wondernines of that era.

And while there's certainly nothing wrong with a 10mm pistol that can give you an on-board payload of 15-rds (Glock 20; Tanfoglio Witness, supposedly), even a 10-12 rd magazine of potent 10mm cartridges housed inside a reasonably-ergonomic frame is still a good thing.

* * * No Glock or EAA suggestions please. Neither interest me.

Well, there's always the possibility of a "CZ" 10mm on the 97B platform, as seen in a YouTube teaser that (presumably) CZ allowed to be uploaded a couple of years ago. If you missed it, check out the YouTube vid in the link in the thread below.

Note, also, how the panning of the camera at the beginning captures, very explicitly, the 15-rd CZ mags - no doubt they're .45 mags modified for the vid to hold 10mm:

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=54272.0

 

[JTQ]

Mainsail wrote,
I think they'd do it with the P320

I think this makes the most sense to me, and I suspect you'll see that before the 10MM version of the P227.

agtman wrote,
...it would have made more sense, to me anyway, for Sig to have released its first 10mm on the double-stack platform of the 227 frame - properly beefed up, of course.

I think putting the 10MM into the P220 was the smarter move. SIG had experience with the P220, and they already had a steel frame for the P220.
As it is, I think SIG was just happy the P227 in .45Auto didn't turn out to be a total disaster. I'm pretty sure you won't see a P227 in 10MM until they come up with a steel frame for it.

 

[HOOfan_1]

VLTOR is redeveloping the Bren 10

 

[ATLDave]

HOOFan_1, that may be true, but we've been hearing that VLTOR has the Bren 10 reincarnation coming for years. IIRC, they announced their intention to do so in 2009.

 

[agtman]

I'm pretty sure you won't see a P227 in 10MM until they come up with a steel frame for it.

Thanks for pointing that out. Hadn't realized the 227 doesn't run a steel frame.

 

[JTQ]

And all the 10MM P220's are on steel frames.

 

[agtman]

And all the 10MM P220's are on steel frames.

Yes, ... as is CZ's 97B, also a big ol' tank of a gun - including the "10mm" one that officially doesn't exist, but with which they were willing to tease us in that vid.

Just sayin' ...

 

[Zaydok Allen]

VLTOR is redeveloping the Bren 10

I heard that 3 years ago. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

And all the 10MM P220's are on steel frames.

Yes they are, and that's one of the things I like about them.

 

[JTQ]

RE: Steel frame P220 in 10MM

460Kodiak wrote,
Yes they are, and that's one of the things I like about them.

Since I know you're a big bullet shooter, I was pretty sure you knew that. My response was really directed towards agtman. Of course, having that knowledge, for the most part, really answers your question. When SIG produces a steel framed P227 you'll probably see a 10MM version sometime later. I'm not sure I see that happening.

I'm not much of a SIG guy, but I think the P227 has been met with a lukewarm reception. I don't think folks hate it, but they don't seem to be ditching their P220's, or G21/M&P 45/XD45/etc., for the P227. The P320 on the other hand seems to be winning over the SIG traditionalists, and taking a bite out of the poly market. I'd expect to see a 10MM P320 before a 10MM P227, and most haven't even seen a .45Auto P320 yet.

 

[agtman]

VLTOR is redeveloping the Bren 10.

According to Vltor's President & CEO, Gary Abrams, he's hoping to get at least the Bren Ten "Legacy" model vetted, produced, and to market in 2016. (See link below to his 16 Jan. 2015 "update" letter)

Presumably, if all the problems he discusses in his letter are remedied (note carefully what he says in the 2nd & 4th paragraphs), we might see samples of the Legacy model at S.H.O.T. 2016.


https://www.vltor.com/2015/02/06/bren-ten-2015-update/

 

[Zaydok Allen]

When SIG produces a steel framed P227 you'll probably see a 10MM version sometime later. I'm not sure I see that happening.

That's true.

I'm not much of a SIG guy, but I think the P227 has been met with a lukewarm reception. I don't think folks hate it, but they don't seem to be ditching their P220's, or G21/M&P 45/XD45/etc., for the P227. The P320 on the other hand seems to be winning over the SIG traditionalists, and taking a bite out of the poly market. I'd expect to see a 10MM P320 before a 10MM P227, and most haven't even seen a .45Auto P320 yet.

I guess I haven't heard if the 227 has been much of a hit or not. I'm interested in one, but that doesn't mean others are.

I've always thought an all steel Beretta 96 would be a great 10mm gun too. Don't know if the design could hold up though.

 

[ATLDave]

According to Vltor's President & CEO, Gary Abrams, he's hoping to get at least the Bren Ten "Legacy" model vetted, produced, and to market in 2016. (See link below to his 16 Jan. 2016 "update" letter)

Presumably, if all the problems he discusses in his letter are remedied (note carefully what he says in the 2nd & 4th paragraphs), we might see samples of the Legacy model at S.H.O.T. 2016.


https://www.vltor.com/2015/02/06/bren-ten-2015-update/

I really, really am not sure why anyone would be waiting around on them at this point. If they get it to market, great. If not, no surprise. In the meantime, Tanfoglio already makes CZ-type steel-frame double-stack 10mm's, available in either DA/SA or SA-only. They even make some of them two-toned, with a blued slide over a stainless frame, if you like that look.

 

[agtman]

I really, really am not sure why anyone would be waiting around on them at this point. If they get it to market, great. If not, no surprise.

I agree that all the stop-n-starts with Vltor's Fortis/Bren Ten revival project have been frustrating and aggravating to those of us who were looking forward to the type of high-end 10mm pistol that the Bren Ten should have been from the git-go. I was just trying to decipher the tea leaves that appeared to be the bottom line in Abrams' 1/2015 update.

I'd look for Vltor to at least get the Legacy model to the market in order to recoup some of the R&D $$$ they've invested since announcing this project 4 or 5 years ago.

In the meantime, Tanfoglio already makes CZ-type steel-frame double-stack 10mm's, available in either DA/SA or SA-only. They even make some of them two-toned, with a blued slide over a stainless frame, if you like that look.

While the Q.C. reputation and durability of the "higher end" Tanfoglio 10mms - like the Stocks & the Matches - appears thus far to be pretty good (going by the user reviews I've seen), the standard line of 10mm Witnesses is hit-or-miss, ... and the poor record of customer service by EAA has been discussed and documented to the point of ad nauseum on this and other gun boards.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

While the Q.C. reputation and durability of the "higher end" Tanfoglio 10mms - like the Stocks & the Matches - appears thus far to be pretty good (going by the user reviews I've seen), the standard line of 10mm Witnesses is hit-or-miss, ... and the poor record of customer service by EAA has been discussed and documented to the point of ad nauseum on this and other gun boards.

Honestly that's why I don't have any interest in a Tanfoglio/EAA. Their reputation scares me a bit and I don't like giving my money to a company that has disappointed so many customers.

It does sound like their higher end stuff is well made, and there are a number of happy customers on THR, I just don't care to go there.

To be fair, there are plenty of people who have had issues with Sigs too.

 

[ATLDave]

That's the funny thing. I had a QC issue with a Tanfoglio and with a Sig. I was treated EXACTLY the same by both companies - about a "B" level of customer service. By which I mean that both fixed the problem, neither paid for shipping back to them, both paid return shipping, neither provided any explanation or commentary as to the source of the issue, and both problems were solved within a couple of weeks.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Yep, everyone's experiences are different. I won't buy Taurus guns either, based on a 100% bad experience percentage.

Yet, I know several forum members have had great experiences, and swear by their Taurus guns.

When it comes to Tanfoglio guns and CZ's for that matter, they also happen to be a little small for my hands. Sigs fit me better. I'm not saying Tanfoglio guns are bad or anything, I'm just saying that I don't feel for me that they are worth sampling.

 

[Thermactor]

double stack isn't enough.
i'm going to wait for a coffin magazine'd 10mm.

 

[ATLDave]

What's a "coffin magazine"?

I use 141mm mags in my Tanfo 10mm, which gets me 19 rounds easily, 20 if I really lean on them.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

When it comes to Tanfoglio guns and CZ's for that matter, they also happen to be a little small for my hands. Sigs fit me better.

Valid issue.

If it ever comes out, a 10mm CZ based on the CZ-97B frame might be worth a second look, as that frame is noticeably larger through the grip area than Tanfoglio's large frame guns, and also larger than the SIG P220. (I've had versions of all of them.)

My CZ-97 was a bit too large for my hand, while my large-frame Witness Sport Long Slide (a predecessor to the current top-of-the-line Tanfoglio and Witness .45s and 10mm models) was just right.