"Pale Rider" Colt conversion question

[ABTOMAT]

All right, the Remington cartrdige conversion deal has been hashed to death, but I have a Colt question. Stockburn and his deputies all were using 1860/61 models. Two or three looked like cartridge conversions, the rest original.

I'm not a huge student of the old west, so I've been wondering about something. Given the guns, the movie probably takes place in the 1870s. In a group of presumably well-funded lawmen/contract killers wouldn't most have been using either conversions or '73s? Just seems like no one with a lot of shooting to do (unless they were stuck in their ways) would stick with cap 'n ball. Am I wrong to think this?

 

[Old Fuff]

Actually, cap & ball revolvers didn't suddenly disappear as soon as cartridge arms (C&B conversions or otherwise) came onto the market. (Here in Arizona it's not unusual to see folks driving cars that are 10 - 15 - 20 years old and more, to cite a more modern example of delayed obsolesces.

Colt’s Single Action Army model was introduced in 1873, and by 1876 some 22,000 had been made, but most of them went to the army, while others were exported. Obviously not all of the male citizens west of the Mississippi river were running around with the latest Colt. Also in many of the more isolated areas on the frontier you couldn’t drop into the local general store (which were few and far between) and expect to find a complete selection of metallic cartridges.

One advantage of some cartridge-converted revolvers (mostly Remington) was that cylinders could be switched back and forth, providing both a cartridge or cap & ball option.

Incidentally, it is my understanding that Cimarron Arms is going to be offering a cartridge-converted 1851 Colt Navy replica that duplicates the one used in those Italian movies staring Clint Eastwood, sometime later this year.

 

[goon]

Bill Hickock carried percussion colts long after cartridge arms were common. One explanation is that you get comfortable with something and choose to stick with it despite its faults. If you need a modern day equivalent, look to the guys that are carrying Browning Hi-Powers and 1911's. They still do their jobs eventhough they aren't a brand new design.
Another explanation is that early cartridges didn't have the same quality control that we have now. A man who had loaded his percussion revolver knew exactly what he was getting (kind of like a handloader now). I suppose given enough expertise and care a loaded percussion revolver may have been more reliable than a gun loaded with cartridges that were made by somone else and then shipped across the country in the back of a wagon.
While we are at it, I have also read that many hunters stuck with flintlocks after percussion guns had become popular because the lock doubled as a firestarter.

 

[mtnboomer]

While many 1860 Army's were converted - most with the Mason & Richards convertion - there was a transitional open-top revolver that has been mostly forgotten. It was the Colt Model 1871 or 1872, depending on the info source. It was basically a Model 1860 Army with a bored-through cylinder and a loading gate on the right side of the recoil shield - exactly like the 1873 SAA.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Incidentally, it is my understanding that Cimarron Arms is going to be offering a cartridge-converted 1851 Colt Navy replica that duplicates the one used in those Italian movies staring Clint Eastwood, sometime later this year.

I don't know anything about a "movie duplicate" gun, but Cimarron has been offering a Richards-Mason 1851 Navy replica for many years now: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Conversion1851-7.5.htm . I know several people who have them.

 

[Father Knows Best]

While many 1860 Army's were converted - most with the Mason & Richards convertion - there was a transitional open-top revolver that has been mostly forgotten.

It wasn't forgotten by Uberti and Cimarron: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/OpenTop7.5Army.htm

 

[BigG]

Goon said:

Bill Hickock carried percussion colts long after cartridge arms were common. One explanation is that you get comfortable with something and choose to stick with it despite its faults.

Since Hickok was assassinated in 1876, I wouldn't exactly say that was long after cartridge arms were common.

I think the cap n ball guns were still made in 1873 and after, I know the 31 caliber Colt had a production life of 1849 to 1873, IIRC.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Good point, BigG. Thanks to the Rollin White patent on bored-through cylinders (enforced by the owners, Messrs. Smith and Wesson), factory-built cartridge firing revolvers had very limited availability until the 1870s. Colt came out with its first cartridge firing model in 1872 (the aforementioned "open top" Colt). The Single Action Army wasn't really produced until 1874, and would have been extremely rare on the frontier. As the Colt SAA was issued in larger numbers, they became more common in the hands of civilians largely due to soldiers who sold their issued sidearms and reported them lost (we know that a used SAA could often bring $25 or more on the frontier in the late 1870s and 1880s, while the soldiers were docked less than half that amount for "losing" their sidearm).

So it would probably have been the very rare civilian in 1876 who had a factory-built, cartridge-firing revolver. Those who did have cartridge guns most likely had older cap and ball guns that were converted for cartridges.

I'm willing to bet that Wild Bill would eventually have adopted cartridge guns, if he had lived long enough. We'll never know....

 

[Old Fuff]

Bill Hickock carried percussion colts long after cartridge arms were common. One explanation is that you get comfortable with something and choose to stick with it despite its faults.

According to an account by one of Hickok's friends in Kansas, "Wild Bill" didn't trust the metallic cartridges of that day. Most were rim-fires and the priming compound didn't always fill the entire rim. It was his practice to shoot, clean and reload his revolvers every day. He said, "when I pull I must be sure."

That said, he was supposedly buried with a .32 Smith & Wesson model #2 Old Army (serial number 30619) that was found on his person. The revolver was recovered later when the remains were reentered.

As for the Cimarron Revolver...

The following is contained in a current Cimarron company press release:

Man With No Name 1851 Conversion.

Replica of Clint Eastwood's 1851 Conversion used in the 1960's Spaghetti Westerns. Just arrived. See at Shot Show booth #5379. More details later.