First black powder pistol.

Status
Not open for further replies.
E

EvilGenius

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
402
Location
Texas
Like in the title, I'm looking at getting my first black powder firearm maybe by the end of the summer.

I've been fond of old west revolvers for years, but just had other guns I felt were more practical and necessary to have first. Now that I've got the basics (two good pistol, a pump action shotgun and an AR) It's time for me to go after the less practical, but honestly more interesting firearms.

Initially I was drooling over an 1875 Rem, but then I felt like the actions and overall size of the SAA type revolvers were just too short and small. I think they're perfect for what they are, but there's just something more satisfying for me to look at like the older bigger and longer almost sleek looking black powder revolvers.

I'm looking at the common 1858 Rem, the 1860 colt and the 1847 Walker. The rem seems to be one common pistol that every BP shooter has, I think it looks great in an all blued frame, but the octagonal barrel and front sight are a little bit of a turn off. I didn't like the 1860s at first, but over time the smoothed and sleek looking barrel/loading lever assembly started to catch on and it started to grow on me. Mostly the same with the walker, I love the size and overall style (especially the trigger guard), but the brick assembly in front of the cylinder threw me off, but grew on me over time.


The one hang up and this will probably make y'all cringe, I will likely want to convert whatever I get to cartridges at one point, but will stick with BP .45 colt loads.

Now luckily I can get both the 1858 and the 1860 in already converted models. I think the type II conversion for the 1860 is gorgeous and the converted 1858 is not too bad. But I like the 1858 better with the original length cylinder. However, with the easy disassembly on the 1858 I could get the kirst drop in cylinder and swap either BP or cartridge cylinders in as I please.

Not really an option for me with the colts. I don't want to have to whack out the wedge clip everytime I reload, which means if I got an 1860 it'd have to be a type II from the beginning (makes sense due to the complexity of the conversion), but on the walker I could shoot it as a BP pistol initially and then later send it in to Kirst and have it converted.

Now I figger most of y'all are already yelling 1858 at your screen, but for the last 6 months or so my gf has been writing a novel (she does that from time to time) about some folks around here in the 1870s and has needed to do a lot of research for it which has really kicked my revolver lust into high gear. As a result of that I'm really starting to turn an eye towards the walker because of it's history with Col. Walker, the Rangers and the Mexican American war. Being a proud native Texan I'd really like to have something in my small, but growing arsenal that represents the history and culture of this place and I plan to buy whichever model I get in person from the folks at Cimarron Arms in Fredericksburg.



My questions are:

Are my expectations reasonable?

Specifically on the Walker, the common conversion seems to be to .45LC. Can you load a normal .45LC BP cartridge and shoot it out of the ".44" barrel, or does it have to have a new custom barrel installed as well?
 
You don't hear me yellin 1858 !!!!!! That was my first c and b revol and shot the fooool out of it!! Then I found colt open tops, fell in love with um and never looked back!!!!!

Why not get what you want? A Walker with a Kirst is a great idea. I have 2 first mod. Dragoons with Kirst's in um and they are fan freakin tastic !! Besides, why remove a cyl. when you can open a loading gate and reload the right way?!!
Same with my 1860 !!

Really, you do what you want, that's what this is all about anyway.But if you want opinions, I'd go with any open top.

45 Dragoon
 
I started with an 1858 and I think it's a little easier to deal with than the Colts for a beginner. That being said I actually shoot my 1860 more accurately. The Walker's great fun but it's darn heavy. You might want to heft one and decide if it's enjoyable for you to shoot or not. Failing that take a 5 pound weight and hold it out one handed and see how it feels - they're not much lighter. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying make sure you know what you're getting into.

I can't speak to the conversions. I initially was interested in them but after shooting the 1858 as is I lost interest - it's just too much enjoyable as is, and more cost effective and fun to just buy more cap and ball revolvers than to buy conversions.
 
You should try shooting both Colts and Remmies.
I like the way Remmies look, but the lack of space between the front of the gripframe and the rear of the trigger guard whacks the knuckle on my middle finger very badly.
As a result, I shoot Colt repros 95% of the time.

A fair number of shooters have this same problem with Remmies.
It existed back in the day as well, as evidenced by the greater space in that area in the 1875 Remington cartridge gun.

I agree about the Walkers and Dragoons -- heft one before you decide.
They were meant to be horse pistols carried in a pommel holster.

I like Colts the best.
Natural pointers.
Yes, unless you want to cut into the gun, you will have to take the barrel off to reload it.
It's not as much hassle as you think.
If the gun is set up properly, the wedge is only finger tight and the gun can be taken down in a few seconds.

I like R & D conversion cylinders.
I've had Kirsts, but I like the others better.
It's personal -- try to shoot each type if you can.
I've found that Kirsts change the feel of the action.

44 Colts and Remmies have a 45 caliber barrel already, so when you convert them, standard 45 Colt/Schofield cartridges with .452 or .454 sized bullets work well.

--DAwg
 
I have shot all the above, and owned them at one point or another. I had a bad problem with the Remingtons getting stuck at half cock, which I understand has always been a failing common to the model.

I currently have a '51 Navy steel frame the shots just fine, and one of the Uberti '51 factory converted to .38 special. one of the best shooting irons I own.
 
IMHO if you want a black powder cartridge handgun you should buy a model designed for the BP cartridge.

With a conversion cylinder you are restricted to lower powered cowboy action shooting ammunition. That may be fine until you decide to use your gun for more serious purposes such as self-defense.

Conversion cylinders are more expensive than the gun and when added to the cost of the revolver more expensive than just buying a centerfire cartridge handgun to begin with. A 1858 Remmie is $229 at Cabelas, add $300 for the conversion cylinder and you have over $500 invested.

The used BP guns with conversion cylinders I have seen for sale do not recoup their total cost.

For tin-foil hat the conversion cylinder option is a way to stay off the grid from the BATF but you can also do that by buying used.

There are a world of difference in the type of guns you mention. I'm sure you know the Walker never had a conversion option. Reloading the BP cartridge requires a press, dies, powder measure, brass whereas with the C&B all you add is powder, wad, bullet and cap. If you are really cheap you can skip the wad and just add grease such as Crisco.
 
Evil,
If you get a Kirst Konversion, you can shoot Factory ammo in it. Factory ammo is below 1000 ft./sec. I reload all my 45's to factory spec. maybe a little more.When I'm not at the range, I keep factory loads in all of them for protection. If you konvert an 1860, use a Pietta and you can shoot factory stuff, with Uberti, everything is reload.The Dragoons will punch clover leafs all day long. Shoot lead only, no jackets.

Don't let people spend your money for you. My Dragoons and 1860 are fitted and as solid as any Colt style peacemaker I've ever had. In fact I have stated before that these are the finest and smoothest revolvers I've ever owned period.

45 Dragoon
 
Last edited:
Like you I want a Walker for historic reasons. Not to mention fairly impressive! But my first historic (I have a Ruger Old Army) cap n ball will be an 1858 Remington.

It seems the Remingtons need much less work to function well. The only common problem I am aware of is the smaller base/cylinder pin getting fouled faster. The Colt's seem to have several common problems such as a short arbor and prone to cap jams, not to mention less useable sights.

But I need some Colt's too!
 
Thanks for the responses guys!

Another question I have is I know "muzzle loading" firearms don't have to be purchased through an FFL, but is there any roll marking or anything I have to do when putting a cartridge cylinder or full conversion in? You don't have to do the FFL thing just to get a cartridge cyl do you?

Edit: I guess that got answered. Thanks!
 
BSA1 said:
IMHO if you want a black powder cartridge handgun you should buy a model designed for the BP cartridge.

With a conversion cylinder you are restricted to lower powered cowboy action shooting ammunition. That may be fine until you decide to use your gun for more serious purposes such as self-defense.

Conversion cylinders are more expensive than the gun and when added to the cost of the revolver more expensive than just buying a centerfire cartridge handgun to begin with. A 1858 Remmie is $229 at Cabelas, add $300 for the conversion cylinder and you have over $500 invested.

The used BP guns with conversion cylinders I have seen for sale do not recoup their total cost.

For tin-foil hat the conversion cylinder option is a way to stay off the grid from the BATF but you can also do that by buying used.

There are a world of difference in the type of guns you mention. I'm sure you know the Walker never had a conversion option. Reloading the BP cartridge requires a press, dies, powder measure, brass whereas with the C&B all you add is powder, wad, bullet and cap. If you are really cheap you can skip the wad and just add grease such as Crisco.
Click to expand...

I do take the idea behind the original use of each one of my firearms into consideration when buying them, but it's likely someone or group would have to make it through all my other arms and all of my gf's arms before I would be forced to use it. I suppose like someone else mentioned I could load the cyl with SD loads and just take them out before shooting it at the range, but not ever shoot them out of it for safety's sake. Either way, I'm not particularly worried about it.

II'm not to worried about resale either, which is why I'm willing to possibly carve one up with a conversion kit. This particular arm, whatever I decide to get, will be entirely for the sake of having something cool and historic looking like in the books and movies.

However, I'd like to retain the ability to use the C&B cylinders because I'm interested in the process of loading one and such, but II also want to be able to plink with it as well without bringing a bunch of equipment along if II didn't feel like it.
 
Once you get one you can't stop

I have a Pietta 1858 Remmie "Buffalo" fantasy revolver and 1851 Colt Navy, on which I can fit the same detachable brass/walnut stock. They both point well and reasonably accurate with and a little less without the stock. I love the .36 cal Colt. Its light, with a light hammer cocking effort and trigger pull. Since my bp tastes run to the bizarre, I found a 20 yo Pietta Le Mat cavalry model recently. Now its a handful (not as much as Walker of course, but cocking it one handed is a real thumb muscle workout) but letting that 20 gauge through cylinder smoothbore go boom using a homemade candleshot buck and bird round is a hoot and never fails to draw a crowd, especially since I carry it at the range unloaded after I shoot it in a shoulder holster while I'm shooting my others.
 
There is no reason to take the s.d. loads out" for safety", like I said, I don't know of any factory that loads reg 45 colt ammo to more than 1000 ft/sec. 230gr-255.gr.

As far as switching back and forth, that will depend on how well your cylinders like the same insides. If you set it up to be perf. with Kirst, it may not like the c.and b. cyl. and vice versa. You may get lucky though. May be best to get two and keep one converted and one b.p. !!!! Ya can't have too many ya no!!

45 Dragoon
 
45 Dragoon said:
There is no reason to take the s.d. loads out" for safety", like I said, I don't know of any factory that loads reg 45 colt ammo to more than 1000 ft/sec. 230gr-255.gr.

As far as switching back and forth, that will depend on how well your cylinders like the same insides. If you set it up to be perf. with Kirst, it may not like the c.and b. cyl. and vice versa. You may get lucky though. May be best to get two and keep one converted and one b.p. !!!! Ya can't have too many ya no!!

45 Dragoon
Click to expand...
True.


Uh oh... That sounds like a good idea! lol
 
The walker wedge works the same way, just the "wrong" direction and everything's larger.

The thing is that when they're new the wedges can be really hard to remove. Like hammering away like a madman hard. You see these old timers popping them in and out with their thumbs but you won't necessarily get that right off the bat. Varies from unit to unit even with a given maker but it's something to be aware of.

The colts also sometimes seem to suffer from marginal mainsprings which affects cap reliability. Not an unsolvable problem but if you do a search you'll find lots of people discussing it. I ended up changing the spring on my 1851. My others have been fine although I did have some excitement with my 1860 initially getting it to work reliably.

Most people do seem to end up getting a variety of these things (I have a half dozen) so again, it's more a question of where do you start than the one you'll be using until the end of your days. If there's a great deal on one, get that one first, otherwise if you're just picking at random again I do feel like the 1858s are easier for a first timer to get rolling right out the gate.
 
I've read that many of those with Walkers complain that the wedge gets battered fairly quickly when using stout loads (over 50 grns?). It's one thing I've questioned since, if I get one, I wanna shoot 60 grns!
 
I wonder if I can just shoot stout 60 grn loads out of it until the wedge wears enough that it's "easy" to pop in and out by hand like in that vid. :evil:

TThen i'll just switch over to .45 LC cowboy loads in a conversion cylinder. :D
 
I've wondered if it would just become a part you replace often! I'm not sure if it damages anything else though...
 
Evil,
I'll say, the power of a .45 colt round fired from an 1860 is a good bit fun. In fact it's DANG fun. The Dragoons don't jump like the 1860 but they are so controllable !! The other thing is , they don't take a beating from shooting either!! The Dragoons are very pleasant to shoot and after a thousand rounds, they are ready to go another thousand !!!!

45 Dragoon

PS Nice 72coupe !!
 
OK guys, I have another question.

I've been reading around on some of the conversion cylinders and a lot of them call for cowboy or BP loads only.

I don't know much about black powder, but I know you can't leave any air pockets in the cylinders. So a full BP load .45 cartridge that measures at a normal OAL presumably has nothing but BP under the bullet right?

If loaded in that manner I assume it would not be pushing the limits of what the cylinders can handle?
 
Yes, powder and bullet.The cylinders are perfectly safe with full power bp loads. I believe the full power bp loads are more powerful than the fact. foder is. That's why you can shoot fact. stuff in um.

45 Dragoon
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

E
  • Locked
Having a hard time deciding.
Replies
2
Views
741
45 Dragoon
45 Dragoon
J
  • Locked
which C&B revolver?
2 3 4 5
Replies
123
Views
7K
justin22885
J
B
  • Locked
Black powder gunsmith
Replies
4
Views
464
Hellgate
Hellgate
Gordon
  • Locked
Oiled all hand guns except two flinters
Replies
7
Views
592
BullRunBear
B
D
  • Locked
RE: cartridge converter on a Pietta Rem. 1858 New Army Police .36 Caliber Revolver
Replies
6
Views
1K
BHP FAN
B
Back
Top