Uberti 1858 questions

[schultzie]

Hello all,

After twenty five years of wanting a black powder revolver, I finally ordered one from Midway. The only black powder weapons that I have ever fired have been a Napoleon, a six-pounder, and a coehorn mortar. Live ammo in all but the Napoleon, but that was two decades ago. Dreams of acquiring my own original piece faded when their prices eclipsed those of a good, used Ferrari. But throughout the big-bore years and beyond, I was enamored by the 1860 Colt and the 1858 Remington. The following decades saw many fine, modern firearms come and go, but no black powder firearms found their way to me.

Fast forward to Saint Patrick’s day of 2008. I found myself in an aircast and on my eighth day of crutches piggybacking on some wireless network while on prescription pain medication generally feeling sorry for myself (nah, nothing can go wrong here). I stumbled onto Midway USA’s site wielding an e-coupon and a debit card. Somehow, a Uberti 1858 New Army and a R & D conversion cylinder snuck into my shopping cart (I’ve heard of this sort of thing happening to others, but I never thought it could happen to me). Three days later I’m opening a box from Midway.

I found the two stowaways hiding in the ocean of styrofoam peanuts. I pull out the Remmie much to the astonishment of everyone in the office and immediately checked each chamber’s lock-up -- pretty good, in fact, better than my Smiths. The side-to-side play is about the same as my Smiths and the fore-and-aft movement is nearly imperceptible. The Remmie is not as nice as my beloved Python in the lock-up department, but I could get another three ‘58’s for the going value of the Python.

Why did I go with the Remmie? Well it just barely nosed ahead of the Colts mainly due to stories of a certain Confederate “Marine’s” preference for them and Clint’s “Preacher’s” handling of one. Hey, if choosing a black powder firearm was a matter of practicality and rational thought processes, black powder firearms would not sell.

And now, 354 words later, we finally meander into a question or two. I attempted to copy the super-slick cylinder change done by the legendary Pale Rider, but this cylinder-to-frame fit on both cylinders is quite tight and it takes everything short of offering burnt sacrifices to get the cylinder locked back into the frame. Is this normal? I could change the cylinder in a Colt just as quickly.

Question #2: The cylinder-to-barrel clearance is too close to even slide a sheet of paper in (in other words, less than three thousandths. Is this typical and will it lock-up due to lead fouling on the cylinder face?

Thanks in advance for your input,

Schultzie

 

[Doc Rizzi]

Your 1858

I had to spend some time before the conversions cylinder properties allowed me to install and remove it as slick as the Preacher. The fit is tight. More than likely at least a couple of thousandths too tight. As tempting as it might be, do not attack your frame with a file. This is the fastest way....however, it is very difficult to file it square, and you will probably end up taking too much off. I would start off with spending some time at the workbench doing the following. You need to do some serious polishing. Start with your cylinder pin. Remove it. Get yourself some 400 and some 600 wet/dry sand paper. Start with the 400. Then move on to the 600. I have a set of Arkansas stones and one of them is long and round. It just fits inside of the cylinder. I put this in my drill and slowly worked it in and out of the hole in the cylinder until it too was well polished. The cylinder pin is just a hair too thick for the hole in the cylinder, especially near the rear. Polishing the cylinder pin will do wonders. Using a flat stone, or the 400 paper on a piece of narrow flat steel, polish the area beneath the forcing cone until is shines like a mirror. There are two schools of thought here. One is that you would mill the cylinder to free up a couple of thousandths rather than take it off the frame...the other is to take it off the frame. If you have access to someone with a mill, then perhaps taking the cylinder down one thousandth at a time and trying it would be the least time consuming thing you could do, but persistent polishing works quite well. I will assume that you know that you need to disassemble the revolver and polish the hand, bolt and the channel that the hand rides in. Look at the channel carefully with a flashlight. You might shave down a Popsicle stick, glue a piece of 400 sand paper to it and use it to polish the hand channel. De-burr and polish the hammer. Do not remove any metal other than burrs. I narrow the main spring on the grinder or with a dremel tool. Avoid taking any metal off one half inch from either end. Just narrow the sides taking off about 1/16 or so from the sides. This will lighten up the spring and give a very nice feel to the action. When you reassemble pay attention to how tight you set the trigger spring screw. Tighten it down all the way, then slowly back it off and try the action. If this screw is too loose it will not keep enough pressure on the bolt and your cylinder will begin to rotate backwards slightly as you lower the hammer back down. If this happens you have the screw too loose. You want it just tight enough to hold the bolt in place. I have done six of my own and they are all great shooters. I use the 1858's for CAS most of the time. I have done two 1851 Pietta Colts and they are smooth and crisp as well. Use cowboy loads though. I hope I have not confused you. I have a lot of fun at the workbench with this kind of stuff. I find it relaxing and rewarding. It is all good till you slip and bleed...smile. Good Luck!

 

[Perk]

Cheeze, Doc. You don't leave much, for to make a reply. Durned good answer-ship.

Only thing 'D add, might be to finish up the polishing with 1200, or 1500 grit Wet 'R Dry. It's available, from many body shops, and makes fitment smooth as glass.

 

[Jamie C.]

No need for polishing and filing yet, I think...

I'm betting Schultzie just hasn't caught on to the trick of rolling the cylinder a bit as he pushes it into place.

The ratchet on the rear of the cylinder has to be rotated so that the hand is pushed out of the way. The only way to do this is to roll the cylinder clock-wise ( viewed from the rear ) as the cylinder is pushed into the right side of the frame. ( again, when viewed from the rear of the gun )

Once you get the hang of it, the cylinder will slide into place with no trouble at all. It just takes a bit of practice.



J.C.

 

[Perk]

With respect, shultzie mentions that the clearance, between the barrel and the cylinder does not seem sufficient, to him. It seems that the cylinder must already be in place, in order for one to be able to make such a determination.

When my own R&D conversion cylinder arrived, I tried it out in each of the two ‘58’s, I currently own. It fit the older Target Model, perfectly. Little too close, for my tastes, in the newer Standard Model, though. Took a lot of fiddling to get the cylinder properly engaged, in that one.

Where it was tight, was exactly where shultzie says he is having his problem. (Which, is my reason for having mentioned the above.)

Believe the Doc’s advice would have come in handy, in my own situation. Said situation sounding very similar to shultzie's.

 

[Jamie C.]

Perk, you can't see daylight through the gap between the BP cylinder and the barrel, on my gun. It's one of the reasons I caution Schultzie to be damn sure what's keeping him from getting the cylinder back in the gun really is tolerance problem, and not simply him not being familiar with the gun yet. And he's not the first person I've seen here ask "How do I get the blasted cylinder back in this gun" when there was no problem at all with the pistol.

I suppose I could have worded my earlier post a bit better, but it was still early for me.

I'm not saying that things aren't too tight with his frame/barrel and cylinder, only to be sure that's the problem before he commits to "surgery".


J.C.

 

[K.A.T.]

Can't Put It Back

I agree with Jamie C, get practiced up first then make a decision about surgery. Can't put it back when it's gone!

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

IF YOU EVER CARRY IT AS A STRAIGHT CAP AND BALL!!--I can change cylinders pretty fast but not real real fast. One of my tricks is as the cylinder roll's in I pull the hammer all the way back, holding the trigger in. It took me a right smart of practice but now I can do it in the dark by feel without ever looking down at it.
When you are practicing remember to keep the revolver tilted down at first so the pin and the rammer stay forward or they (especially the rammer) will hang up the cylinder.
I know one lady in Montana (pretty to) who can change cylinders just a hair faster then her husband (a police officer) can eject and get a fresh load into his Colt Trooper .357 with a speedloader. That's the truth. I know it's hard to believe but it's still the truth.
Everyone who has read me on this site know's how I feel about the Walker. It is a strong, strong weapon especially when you consider how much energy it dump's into the target, (I call it knockdown power) but that '58 is a fine piece after you learn how to use it. Like anything else it take's some work but that's the difference between learning how to shoot and just hosing lead.
Why people want to kill something with the first round and then watch it bleed to death with the other rounds is quite beyond me. I learned a long time ago that guns are just like medicine. You go to the store and buy some medicine that's supposed to be good for a lot of things, it's probably not much good for anything.
There's nothing wrong with collecting and owning a lot of guns, but a man who want's to carry and shoot a different gun every few days can't really shoot. He might say he can and he might think he can but he can't.
Show me a man who carry's the same gun and shoot's that same gun day in and day out, and I'll show you a man that you'd better get off in a corner somewhere and have a long. long think about before you start trouble with his ass....
That Remington (Pietta /Uberti) 1858 New Model Army .44 caliber has plenty of stopping powder. It'll knock a man into the dirt real quick and it will keep him there to.
They say you're not supposed to insert a loaded and capped cylinder into the piece but I do it all the time. That's the whole purpose of learning to change cylinders fast to begin with. I haven't had any problems and I'vd been doing it for a long time. IF YOU DO IT THAT WAY THEN BE REAL CAREFUL UNTIL YOU HAVE YOUR TECHNIQUE DOWN GOOD!!....
I don't mean to sound like I know it all. I'm not such a much....

 

[schultzie]

Wow, thanks for the input! I've been practicing cylinder swaps after my daughters go to bed and I'm showing a great deal of improvement. With alot more practice, I'm sure I will get there. I plan on using this pistol primarily with black powder. The only reasons that I purchased the R&D cylinder were because the indoor shooting range near me does not allow black powder and it will likely be another month or month and a half before my ankle heals enough to visit an outdoor range.

An indoor range that does not allow black powder -- give me a break! Most of the clientel claim to be practicing self-defense shooting. I say turn off most of the lights (and the air conditioner) then fill the place up with black powder smoke.

Schultzie

 

[Jamie C.]

I've been practicing cylinder swaps after my daughters go to bed and I'm showing a great deal of improvement. With alot more practice, I'm sure I will get there.

Can we take it then that your cylinders do indeed fit, and function correctly, and that you simply haven't quite gotten the hang of the Remmie's "peculiarities" in getting them back in place?


J.C.

 

[Perk]

Well, there you go, Jamie C. Seems that your advice, on having shultzie practice a bit first, rather than removing metal, might very well have been the best way to get things done.

Good call, sir!

 

[Jamie C.]

Eh, I've just learned better than to start removing metal until I'm 100% sure I know how the machine is supposed to work. And, as I said earlier, I've heard enough people complain about getting the cylinder back in a Remington.

Speaking of the Pale Rider gun though, folks shouldn't use it as any kind of example of how a BP Remington's cylinder goes back in. Clint's was a cartridge conversion that not only had the hammer altered but also had a plate installed in the breech face. That plate not only had a very small hole in it for the firing pin to pass through, but a large "U" shaped cut-out as well. That cut-out allowed the edge of the ratchet to ride into place, sort of like a rail system. It was no doubt much easier to get a fresh cylinder into that gun that it would be for a standard BP 1858.

Here's a pic of an original conversion with the features I'm talking about. These guns were no longer able to use the standard BP cylinder:

J.C.

 

[schultzie]

AAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGHHH!!!
Now the action is locking up at half cock (sometimes):banghead: I guess my inverse midas touch still works with firearms. and this is the first one I have rendered inoperable without firing a shot. Some of my "kills" include a M16A1, a Colt CAR 15, a Colt series 80 Combat Commander, A Ruger Mini 14, A Walther P88 Compact, and now a Uberti 1858 New Army.

I will have to find out how good Midway's customer service is tomorrow.

I was practicing cylinder swaps when I realized that I was unable to get the cylinder to go in. I really had been getting much better -- even without using a 3# sledge (of course the claw hammer and the prybar are fair game).

I thought Ubertis were supposed to be better than this.

Schultzie

 

[Jamie C.]

*sigh* Sounds like you may have broke or wore out the leg on the cylinder bolt that engages the cam on the hammer... You'll likely need to order a new one. It's possible you could have broken it by trying to force the cylinder into place with the bolt up. ( You haven't been cocking the hammer to full cock, then letting it back down to half cock prior to trying to put the cylinder in, have you? )

Anyway... now you'll need to take the gun apart and have a look at it's innards. Do you have a good set of screwdrivers? Not those Stanley ones... hollow-ground gunsmith's screwdrivers.


J.C.

 

[schultzie]

While I do have a good set of screwdrivers, I am unable to locate them at the present time. I did not dry fire but rather brought the hammer to half-cock from the fired position. I try to practice with every thing as if I were in a high stress situation, so I would loose track of the rounds fired and discover it was empty on an already fired cylinder. Looking back, it's actually rather humorous pulling the trigger on an auto with the slide locked back and thinking, "Oh no, what did I break now?" Or I'm sure my competitors got a real kick out of me performing three consecutive tap-racks in a comnpetition only to discover that a slide mounted decocker had broken and rendered a $1000-plus pistol tango uniform.

I'll hopefully find that Midway's returns are as flawless as their orders and delivery.

Thanks,

Schultzie

P.S.: J.C., I love your sig line. Both of my daughters sing right along with the late Warren in the car.

 

[Jamie C.]

Hey, if you can and want to send the gun back for replacement, that's fine by me. I was just guessing at what the problem most likely was.

As for what I mentioned about half cock... I wasn't talking about dry firing.

If you pull the hammer back on a Remington, the bolt will drop until the hammer gets to a certain point, then it pops back up. So, if you pull the hammer back to full cock ( or even almost to full cock ), then lower it back to half cock... the bolt stays up.

You then have to let the hammer all the way back down, so the cam can catch, then pull back just a bit past half cock for it to stay down.

Pushing the bolt down with it in the "up" position can prematurely wear it against the cam. Especially if the leg hasn't been properly hardened. ( Don't ask me how I know this... )
The cam on the hammer could also be worn or defective, but most likely it's the leg on the bolt. ( Which is why I suggested taking the gun apart to see. )

Make sense?


J.C.

P.S. Glad you like my signature.
P.P.S. Anything you can't locate is something, for all practical purposes, you ain't got.

 

[Mausermike]

Same deal with the locking bolt on a Colt.

Is the bolt/trigger spring still OK? The bolt should fall without it (no lockup) but I've seen a single action revolver where a piece of this spring jammed the bolt.

 

[schultzie]

It will cycle several times then get hung up, then cycle normally again.

I did not have time to call Midway-- Mondays after a three day weekend usually seem to last through Wednesday.

 

[Jamie C.]

It will cycle several times then get hung up, then cycle normally again.

That certainly sounds like either the cylinder bolt or the hammer cam is defective, to me.

I'm guessing that one or the other is worn to the point that it's intermittently either not catching the bolt and lowering it, or is catching it, but then releasing it way too soon, not allowing the cylinder to turn and locking up the whole works.

It's a safe bet that with continued use, if you gave it long enough it eventually wouldn't pull the bolt down at all. And "long enough" probably wouldn't be a very long period of time at all.



J.C.

 

[thnycav]

Yes it does take lots of pratice to change cylenders. I do cavalry reenacting and have trained a lot with my 1858 Rem. I can now change it on horseback at the walk and trot. Yes I did drop the cylender a few times and he stemped on it a couple times pushing it in the dirt.

 

[Jamie C.]

Howdy, thnycav.

I could probably change the cylinders on a '58 while on horseback... however, the back of the horse's head would probably suffer for the effort.
( Anybody know how to get powder burns out of horse hair? )


J.C.

 

[66gt350]

( Anybody know how to get powder burns out of horse hair? )

During one of our Mounted Cowboy Action Shooting practices, one of the participants actually shot her horse with the black powder blanks. With his winter coat, I don't think that he even felt it. But there was a nice black streak on his neck... Even though we shoot blanks, they can still do some pretty major damage.

66gt350

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

George Armstrong Custer shot his horse while hunting once. Not exactly the thing to do miles away from anything, but I don't think he was ever well known for his intelligence. Makes for long walk home. He got lucky that time and was found.

 

[Tommygunn]

George Armstrong Custer shot his horse while hunting once. Not exactly the thing to do miles away from anything, but I don't think he was ever well known for his intelligence. Makes for long walk home. He got lucky that time and was found.

He wasn't "exactly" hunting. It was his first Indian expedition, the "Hancock Expedition." It was in winter, and he violated orders by leaving his cavalry regiment. He had his two hounds with him and they took off after a deer, which they lost. Unfortunatly they located a maverick buffalo, which Custer proceeded to chase until the buffalo was so exhausted it stumbled into his horse. Custer had had his Colt Navy roundbarrel out and cocked, and it went off as the horse went down, unfortunatly aimed square at the horse's head, blowing it's brains out.
Custer was out alone in Indian Territory, his horse dead, his revolver had disappeared into the snow ... and there was a really p'o'd buffalo stomping around nearby. "I don't think he was ever well known for his intelligence." Well, a detachment from his 7th cav. showed up and brought him another horse. He asked how they managed to find him, the officer responded that they'd followed his horse's footsteps ... keep in mind there was about 18 inches of snow on the ground.

I won't call him dumb ... but he clearly lacked a firm grasp of the obvious .....

If you read his account of this incident in My Life on the Plains, it's clear he was vainglorious -- he tells how he knew he'd be crushed if his horse rolled over him so he used his physical prowess to leap away from the collapsing critter. I'm amazed he actually wrote about it. Most of today's politicians would deny it ever happened.

 

[Jamie C.]

Most of today's politicians would deny it ever happened.

Hillary would'a blamed it on a sniper fire.


So... Schultzie... You got in touch with Midway yet?



J.C.