Paper Cartridge Tips Please?

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Foto Joe

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So, here I am with no cartridges to load. Boxes of 45 Colt, 44 Special and 38 Special and I got bored. Consequently I sat down this afternoon to load some paper cartridges for the Dragoon. Here's my question:

The powder end of the cartridge is folded not twisted. I'm assuming that the act of ramming the ball into the chamber is going to puncture the paper sufficiently for firing. I've watched a couple of video's on YouTube where the guy tears the end off and pours the powder in. It seems like if I was gonna do that, I'd just load out of the flask like I've been doing.

Do you who use the paper cartridges for cap & ball get any significant hang-fire using these? Any tips regarding loading them in the gun would be appreciated.

Even though making them is a pain, I think it's about as efficient as loading 45 Colt etc. with Black Powder. I think the up side is going to be that I might be able to skip taking a heavy shooting box with all the fixin's.
 
I have yet to have a hang fire with mine. I use APP with no.11 magnum caps. As for the folding I twist the ends. the round with the paper and all looks a bit like, well the best thing I can think of is a Bugle Chip, except it is white. I like to set mine up like this because it is easier to insert the round in the chamber, it being a 36cal and all. Hope this helps, It does cut down on the reloading time (at the range anyways).
 
ive made up some from smoke paper and had no trouble with hangfire on the first but on the next load ups the paper tended to block up the nipples
 
The reason why the powder end of paper cartridges was folded and not twisted was that it was easier to bite the cartridge open with your teeth that way. The drill for loading muskets ("load in nine times") was very specific as to the procedure. Recruits were actually rejected if they had missing front teeth. And, soft paper should be used. Try doing this with your teeth and you'll see what I mean. As for cartridges for revolvers, they simply followed the pattern for those for muskets.

When loading a revolver (or breech-loading carbine), it's not necessary to tear the cartridge open, if it's made of combustible paper. Dixie Gun Works sells kits for rolling your own combustible paper cartridges. The paper is sheared in the process of loading, anyway.
 
I guess the jist of what I'm getting here is just stuff 'em and puff 'em. No need to run a nipple pick to pierce the paper once rammed, but from the sound of it, a good idea to run a nipple pick post firing. That's SOP for me anyway. I'll see if I can get out and give them a try today.

By the way, I'm using Bugler papers. I told the kid behind the counter to just grab me some cheap papers and that's what he handed me. He told me "these are real good, you'll like 'em". If they work, I'll probably stop back again today and grab some more, that kid will probably wonder how I even function, let alone ride a motorcycle in my condition if I'm going through that many rolling papers.
 
I use Bugler or Top. Zig Zags are a little flimsier, and a little harder to roll into a paper cartridge. Dixie Gunworks sells an excellent little pamphlet.
 
Use a copper tube and shellac

Hey Joe!

I've made tons of paper cartridges with a copper tube that is just under the ball/conical size. I'll wrap the cigiarette paper around the tube. Slide the paper to where it slightly protrudes past the tube's end. Then place the projectile on the end with the overlapping paper. Then a light spin of shellac to hold the projectile in place. When dry (it usually takes a few minutes) I'll point the tube bullet down and dump my powder into the open end of the tube. Slide the tube free from the paper formed and then gently fold over the tail and again a dot of shellac to seal it up. NOTE: to speed production I'll use about 12 tubes to make my loads. This way the first few are drying as I progress to the next ones down the line. Also, shellac is used as it is still flamable when dry. It burns better in the chamber of the revolver and leaves little ash behind.

That was the way I was taught by my great uncle who was shown by his dad. G.G. Grandpa was an old Civil War vet that used C&B revolvers well into the 1890's as he had said that was what he was used to. I was told that the old man had both a '51 navy for everyday carry and a '60 Army for when he was a might more serious when he thought something needed killin'.

Hope that this helps,

Wade
 
Wade,

Interesting concept with the copper tube, what inside diameter tube are you using? As far as the shelac is concerned, currently I'm using gummed cigarette papers. Other than being careful to keep my mitts off the paper anywhere near the gum so I don't wind up lead poisoning myself they seem to work good. I've got a buddy showing up in the next hour and I'm gonna head out test them in a couple of different guns. The temp is pushing 70 and the wind is light, I'm glad I'm not in Wyoming right now!

If they work, I'll see if I can post a pic or two of my handiwork.
 
Do yourself a favor and get a dental pick from your local RX.
It works wonders for getting the unburned paper out of the chamber bottom.
 
I use a sharpie marker and wrap it with the paper and then seal the paper. Just leave some off the bottom to fold it shut. Then I put it in a empty .45 shell and fill with powder & filler then twist the top shut. I actually leave them in the shell and transport them this way to the range in a box. I load the ball separately.
 
So...out to test my "Modern" paper cartridges yesterday afternoon. This was an eye-opener. I figured since I had just about everything I needed in my two tupperware boxes, i.e. the cartridges, I didn't take my shooting box. Just my trusty can of Crisco, a popsicle stick and my nipple pic and cappers. Wouldn't ya know it, I left my loading stand in the box!!

Turns out, no loading stand isn't an issue. The cartridges worked GREAT!! I've got to make a couple of small adjustments like, no more folding the end over. The folded end tends to make it difficult to start the cartridge in the chamber without rolling it between your fingers first. All subsequent cartridges will get twisted and have the twist trimmed off.

As far as paper residue in the chambers, yes there was some in my brass Navy, but it was only loaded with 16gr plus filler. I did have one nipple get plugged and I couldn't pound a nipple pick through it but eventually I got it to clear. The second time it happened I got the bright idea of "hey stupid, fire another cap through it!", and that cleared it instantly. I also did get a few hang-fires but they were probably less than a tenth of a second, I was the only one that could tell there was a hesitation. There were no mis-fires. The hang-fires/hesitation I attribute to paper residue or possibly the doubled paper at the base due to folding it over instead of twisting the end.

The Dragoon faired better with the paper residue, probably due to the fact that it was loaded with 30gr plus filler. Also, there were no hang-fires on the Dragoon which tends to support my theory of less paper residue. The other possibility is that the Navy has Treso's and the Dragoon has factory nipples, which have a flash hole big enough to throw a cat through. But since it doesn't shed caps or splatter them I've left them alone. That large flash hole might provide quite a bit more punch from the caps I would imagine.

There was a time not too long ago, that I couldn't understand why anyone would sit down and roll their own. It's time consuming and tedius and if you're gonna shoot Black Powder revolvers you're gonna take your range box anyway. But boredom overtook and I gave it a try to say that I did it, and I have found a use for the roll-yer-owns. I can now go shoot and go light, if I want. Capper, pic and Crisco and off I can go. I think I'll probably load up a few dozen for each gun, label 'em and keep 'em for quick trips to go play.

Thanks for the tips and suggestions, we can chalk this one up to just one more thing that THR has taught a late bloomer.
 
Tube size? I've slept since I first made them!

Joe,

Like the title, I've slept since then!:) But what I did was take a ball for .36's and one for .44's to the plumbing supply shop way back when and just did a "Hold the ball to the tube" method to eyeball them and bought the tubing that was JUST under the size of the ball. I really do not remember what size the tubing was!:uhoh:

When making the conical loads I'll put the bullet on the end of the tube and wrap the cig paper around both tube and bullet. Then do the shellac thing and tube filling and such as I described earlier. I forgot to mention the bit about conicals.:banghead:

The plumbing shop, I recall, was the same place I used to buy lead from thus they were familar with my black powder mentality. But be that as it may, if you go to the hardware store with the size ball in hand, you'll find a tube that fits and go from there. Also, when I was doing this stuff, there was no PVC or such then. Maybe a hobby shop might have some plastic tubing that would work better! Who knows?

Good luck!
Wade
 
I'm personally finding that the cigarette papers seem to work just fine. I did a search of DGW and didn't find nitrated paper, just a book on how to make them that BHP Fan gave the link for above.

Wife and I took off in the Rhino yesterday to go explore an old ghost town out in the desert. Given that we were offroading I didn't want to take a range box (and I'm glad I didn't). I rolled up a few dozen loads for my brass Navy to play with. This time I twisted the ends instead of folding. The first one I fired, didn't. Turns out the twist was probably stuck right up against the flash hole and it just wasnt' gonna go. It sucks standing there for almost a minute just waiting for the kaboom and hoping it doesn't happen when you're not paying attention.

Anyway, after the first cylinder I started tearing the end off the cartridge and pouring the charge into the cylinder. Then I just stuffed the paper in on top of the filler still attached to the ball and rammed it home. It's probably not the way they were intended to be used, but it works good.

I'm liking these things simply because it makes it easier to go shoot in places that otherwise I wouldn't.
 
I only do the twist with PP bullets

Joe,

I was gonna tell ya that twisting paper cartridges might not be a good idea, but forgot to get off my lazy behind and tell ya!:uhoh:

Keeping as much of the tail off the paper at the end is best. Remember that the shellac will burn and help ignite, and using it to close the paper's end will help in setting off the charge.

I did the nitrate treatment for a while, but it was a messing thing to do. Took way to long to soak the paper. Dry it. Roll it and then make the loads. I just used the straight cig papers and the shellac gluing system and had good luck with them all after that.

I gotta measure those tubes I built (if I can find then:banghead:) and get that info to you. I do remember taking a case chamfering tool to reduce the end where the projectile rests during the building process. By putting a radius on the end would keep most of the paper/shellac attachment from sticking to the tube. Got to the point that I was using a touch of wax on the tubes to keep things ahhhh, non-sticky!

Happy trails,

Wade
 
Shellac?

Two reasons:

1. The shellac holds the projectile and paper together. i.e. as the ball is placed on the end of the tube, the paper is slipped up to the ball. Once in place, the shellac is run around the seam where the two meet. This helps hold the ball to the paper.

2. The shellac closes the end of the paper after you fold the tail over. Once dry, any left over tail is simply cut away with fine scissors. And it helps give this end a good burn.
 
This was so funny, the first Paper Cartridges I had made, for my 3rd Dragoon...I'd load them, and pull the Trigger, and "fffffffffffffft...BOOM!"...Lol...

You could just about stand there and count off the seconds till it went off.

Well, as others are saying, I learned not to have a centrally twisted end.

I also found, that making the Paper Cartridge taper, and with the smaller end merely folded over, so it tears and spills Powder in the base of the Cylinder for the Cap to get to well, so it tears that way when rammed home, seemed to work best.


Ideally, soaking the Cigarette Paper in a Pyroxylin solution, such as if one dissolve a little Nitro based Smokeless in Alcohol or maybe Acetone, would be best of all, but, I have not tried that yet.


Dilute Nail Polish of the clear sort, if of the old fashioned kind, would be about the same thing of course...and would be easy enough to try out.


I like the Paper Cartridges, and, if one rounds up some really old, small, hinged Tins from 19th Century Pastilles or other, one can line up a hand full and it looks really good and is very practical to carry them that way.

One can also make a drilled Wooden Block, who's holes are just a little shy of the overall length, and, with a twisted top, especially if the Cartridges are tapered, they can be pulled out easily for use.
 
I'm adapting 45-70 Ranger's idea a little bit. I was just in town and stopped at the hardware store. They were more than happy to sell me a 10 foot lenght of 3/8" ID copper, but since I only wanted about 6", I figured that it wasn't too cost effective. I settled on some plastic 3/8" ID tubing which I'm now trying to straighten with hot water. My hope is that I can just drop my powder funnel from my press onto the tubing and pour in my magic mixture, we'll see.

Wolfebyte,

I saw that thread last year and at the time pretty much ignored it. I did find it again and read it a couple of days ago. At the time I figured, "Who'd want to sit at the table and roll paper cartridges." Apparently I do.

It just makes it a whole lot easier to go shooting especially if I want to take the bike. Or if I'm playing out in the desert with the Rhino and I don't want my range box getting the snot knocked out of it while I'm bashing along over the rocks.

The technique for making them is straight forward but everybody has their own little tricks that they use. That's basically why I put this thread up, I can always learn from others, both the right way and the wrong way. Unlike our government, I actually strive to learn from my mistakes.
 
I dunno man, seems to me our gov't has learned from their mistakes - they continue to get better and better at making them, and, at making larger and messier ones too.


But, on the Paper C'tgs - if they taper, they are a lot easier to load! And, they will automatically split open once rammed down well.

I also place my little Home Made Lube Wafer, in the Paper Cartridge...so it is complete.
 
I'm in the process of putting together a few dozen to go test in the Dragoon tomorrow morning. I'm not twisting the end, I'm folding it over. I'm also using that 3/8" ID plastic tubing. I'm finding that instead of rolling them on the table, they roll tighter and smaller diameter if I roll by hand.

I'm using my powder funnel to put 15gr of cornmeal filler against the ball through the plastic tube, but a 30gr spout on the flask does good right into the paper. I'll get this dialed in eventually.
 
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