Paper Cartridges - Range Report (not good)

[tpelle]

I've been reading up and experimenting with making paper cartridges. I've been using the cigarette paper method, wherein I roll the ball into the paper, seal the ball end with a twist, pour in the powder, seal the powder end with a twist, then trim the twist back.

These were made for use in my Pietta 1860 Army.

First, I had a lot of trouble with getting the cartridges started into the cylinder. There just isn't enough room to get the powder end started.

Once started, however, the ball pressed in OK, trimming off a lead ring and the end of the paper cartridge.

I capped the 5 cylinders that I loaded and took my first shot. There was a very short hang-fire, definitely a crack when the cap went off, followed a fraction of a second later by the usual boom when the main charge went off.

I cocked the gun for the second shot, and pulled the trigger. The cylinder fired, but it just didn't feel right. I decided that, before sending another ball down a possibly-obstructed barrel, I'd decap and break the revolver down to check things out. I tried pulling the hammer back to half-cock, and found that the revolver was locked up!

I took the pistol back to a table and knocked the wedge loose. Pulled the barrel off, and it was clear. Pried the caps off with my pocket knife. Looked at the cylinder, and the ball that I tried to fire was pushed partly out of the cylinder, and would have been partly into the forcing cone (which was - luckily - why it was locked up).

So now I had a cylinder loaded with three unfired charges that I didn't trust, and one squib with the ball partly out of the cylinder.

I got out my nipple wrench and removed all the nipples first. I tried pushing the squib ball the rest of the way out of the cylinder, but I didn't have a brass rod long enough. Sat for a minute considering how to proceed, and developed a plan.

First I pushed the squib ball back into the cylinder to a depth matching the other balls. I took my powder measure and poured the chamber full of powder through the nipple hole. I then replaced all six nipples, and reassembled the revolver.

Before capping the charged cylinders I took a straightened-out paper clip and pushed it down through each nipple, puncturing the remaining paper cartridges and hopefully exposing powder to the flash from the cap.

I went back out to the firing line, and decided that I would fire the four shots into a tree stump where I could watch the impacts at close range and make sure all the balls made it out of the barrel. The remaining charges fired OK.

So, here is what I learned so far:

1. The paper cartridges are hard to get inserted, unless I can find a way to get them made with an extreme taper to allow them to be more easily inserted in the chamber.
2. To get reliable ignition, it will likely be necessary to prick the cartridge through the nipple to expose powder to the flash.
3. Considering the time that it took to do this load (of course, it was my first effort), I think I could have loaded with loose powder and a ball quicker and easier, especially if I have to add a pricking step to the operation

Back to the drawing board!

 

[Smokin_Gun]

A very good description of your development of a combustable paper cart and the troubleshooting method used defusin' yer probelms.
This is the kind of post i like to read about and the solutions offered will most likely be many.
I'll mention a tappered dowel or a cone shaped cig paper sleeve to start with so as you have no trouble with the powder charge fitting the chamber. Fold the powder end over rather than twistin' it. Use a nipple pick(sharpened paper clip)to poke the paper carts after loading. Or pre-make a paper charge(powder only)then load the ball seperately.
I still prefer pourin' the powder with a lube pill then the ball and cap...
Good posting!

 

[tpelle]

Yeah, I was wrapping the ball, along with a piece of 7/16" dowel (not tapered), in a piece of Zig-Zag paper, then twisted the ball end. I wrapped these six at a time, then, after the paper stickum had a good chance to stick, I charged the tubes with powder, then twisted that end.

I think I may try tapering the dowel - maybe starting with a 1" dowel so when the paper is wrapped, it forms more of a cone. After it dries I can then slide the dowel out the ball end, drop in the ball and twist it, then charge the skinny end. I agree with doing a fold instead of a twist on the ball end - the paper is pretty thin and fragile and it's hard to get the twist on that end without the paper tearing.

At least I managed to work my way through a potentially hazardous malfunction, and keep all my fingers and both eyes.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi tpelle,



Good reading!


I love 'Range Reports'...


My own experiments in this 'Cigarette Paper' Cartridge making, have shown me the following -


Revolver is an older ( but 'goodie' ) 'San Marcos' 3rd Dragoon, new 'Tresco' Nipples...44 Cal, of course.


Does not like a 'twist' on the bottom end...slow or inefficient Fire.


So...I tried making Cartridges using a one-layer-folded-end.


These worked very well...no hang fire, no delay...felt like an 'effecient' Burn.


Diameter of the Paper Cartridge indeed needs to be enough less than the diameter of the Cylinder Bore, for the Paper Cartridge to literally drop in.


And, in being less diamneter, the paper will rupture open when the Ball is seated.


Poking a 'paperclip' Wire through the Nipple Holes...I did not try, but, sounds good..!

 

[tpelle]

I'm not sure how much time or trouble is saved if I have to add the step of poking a paperclip through the flash hole. I'm pretty efficient at loading my revolver - although I may take a few "incautious" shortcuts.

Generally I pour the charge directly from my powder flask - one of those old brass cylindrical CVA flasks with the thumb-valve at the bottom of the spout. You cover the end of the spout with your finger, then, with the spout pointing down, open the thumb-valve letting powder flow into the spout. Then close the valve, and tip the flask spout up. This leaves a 25 grain charge in the spout, which I then pour directly into the cylinder.

Before doing the pour, I blow down into the chambers hoping to extinguish any sparks remaining - don't know if that helps or not, but it seemed like it wouldn't hurt. Anyway, I suppose that folks worry about a spark remaining in the cylinder igniting the powder being poured, which will flash up into the spout, and cause the main powder supply to go off like a hand grenade.

Can this actually happen? Has it happened?

Anyway, I then press the ball directly on top of the powder - no over-powder wad - and as long as I get a good "ring" shaved off of the ball when I press it in, I don't bother with grease over the ball. I figure the lead ball has pretty well sealed the chamber. I figure there's probably more chance of a chain fire by having one cap flash over to another.

So, am I flirting with death and destruction?

Anyway, I am somewhat concerned with the amount of paper left behind in the cylinder after firing a paper cartridge. Today, when I immersed my cylinder in water while cleaning, and swished it around, a piece of partly-charred paper floated out of one of the chambers. I bet this presents more of a danger of igniting a subsequent load than does a stray spark left from loose powder.

What say you all?

 

[TomADC]

I'm toying with the idea of using magicians flash paper and rolling some loads up.
http://www.magicgeek.com/flash-pad-352.html

 

[BHP FAN]

Always use either grease,a wad or a lube cookie to seal the load.

 

[Oyeboten]

Yes..!


'Flash Paper'...


That'd be good...

Easy to make, too.


Bookies used to use it, of course.


I'll try making some...dissolve a dab of Smokeless (or any old Celluloid) in Acetone, and, dip the Paper in that...let dry...use same to
'glue' the seams if one wants...


Glad this came up...I'd clean forgotten I was wanting to try this...


As for me, I love my 'Grease-Lube-Wafers'...and will stay with them.

 

[Jim K]

In the old days, pistol (revolver) cartridges were usually made with foil or skin and shaped by pressing into a form, not twisted. I recommend the use of treated paper; it is available from Dixie or you can make your own as suggested. You should not have to prick the cartridge through the nipple.

The twist undoubtedly caused the misfire, but the bullet jump was probably caused by the excess paper taking up too much room and not allowing the ball to be fully seated. The bullet is not normally held by a twist of the paper but by an application of glue.

It sounds like the cartridges are too long or too thick if loading is difficult. The correct cartridge should look a bit like an ice cream cone, with the bullet exposed. Also, you mention using a ball. If you mean that, note that cartridges were never loaded with round balls, only with pointed bullets, which have a heel to which the paper is glued. The paper does not cover the bullet.

Seat a dry wax wad under the bullet, so the cartridge is self-contained; you don't use a separate wad with a cartridge.

Jim

 

[scrat]

Two things.
1 i use the orange colored zig zags. BUTTTTT i take them and dip them in potasium nitrate. i put in a table spoon of NOX in bowel of water then take them out with some tweesers and let them dry.

2. tried it with the bullet but i like it without. I take a .44 cartrige wrap the paper around it and use some elmers paste glue on the seem. To make a tube. Then twist tie one end turning the twist to a corner. then cut the twist. Now put the tube in a 45 colt cartridge and fill with 25 grains black. Then tie off the end and cut this end i usually leave a little long.

At the range the small cut end goes in the cylinder first then wad and ball or just ball then press down. i have not had any problems with hang fires or fail to fires.

 

[wittzo]

I experimented with paper cartridges until I figured out a load that both me and my gun could agree upon.

I used 777 and .457" balls cast from a Lee mold. Polished stainless Pietta '58 Remington with two extra cylinders. LeFrance 1.5 rolling papers. I believe that if you have a good ring of lead and caps on your nipples, you won't have a chain fire.

The first time, I loaded up a bunch of paper cartridges with ball and powder without using a dowel rod. I used the ball as a guide for diameter. They looked just like the pictures, so I was happy. When I loaded them, however, the paper busted because the cartridge was larger in diameter than the cylinder, just like the ball. I had lead shavings, paper, and powder all over the place. I had solid lead rings wrapped in paper.

Second try, I loaded up some with a dry felt wad over the powder and a lubed wad under the ball, which is what I usually do. It was a pain to make the cartridges, trying to keep the wads aligned. They were a huge mess to load, the wads were .45 and really hard to get into the cylinders without breaking the paper and powder popping out. The lube from the wad (2 x lard/2 x paraffin/1 x beeswax) was also messy. Solid lead rings wrapped in paper with 777 stuck to them. For me, loading them with wads doesn't work.

My final batch worked great. I used a 7/16 dowel rod to wrap the paper around and then slid the dowel rod down with a ball riding on top. I then moistened and twisted the ball end and then twisted the dry paper as tight as I could on the rod and moistened it. I pulled the rod out and put the cartridge tube in a loading tray to dry. I put 20 grains of Cream of Wheat in as filler followed by 20 grains of 777. That gave me the best results, they loaded a lot easier without any fuss because of the smaller diameter. Rings of lead wrapped in paper.

I use my bench loader to load my cylinders and paper cartridges for the second go round. The first time I tried reloading freshly emptied chambers, I had a slow ignition on one chamber and it had a lot of cream of wheat remnants in that cylinder. I guess the powder and cream of wheat mixed together when I rammed the ball in place. I have some paper debris in the chambers when I give the cylinders a bath.

 

[Oyeboten]

My Grease-Wafers...are around .470-ish...or, a little larger than the Dragoon's Cylinder Bores, anyway.


Before Loading, or, before assembling a Paper Cartridge, I press the Wafer into a small 1/2 Round depression in a little Home-Made Tool just for this , making it into a 'cup'...the Ball then sits on this...easy...good fit...rides nice in the Paper Cartridge...works good just plain.

 

[wittzo]

I reckon I could use a 7/16" punch (about .437") to make felt wads for the paper cartridges so I don't have to fool around with the cream of wheat. I bet that would work a lot better, even if they swell a little when I grease them and it will be faster than measuring a batch of cream of wheat. I use a .45 Colt casing to make my grease pills and gently tap them in place with the rammer after I've loaded the balls to make sure they're settled in place.