I think I've attributed my FTF in my new Para to a tight extractor, but have no idea how to remedy this situation. I tried to follow this page http://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm to do it but once I got the extractor out I realized the new para extractor is like a 3 piece affair, and the claw is separate from the rest of the 'shaft' and spring loaded to supply the tension, so you can't bend it to reposition it. I'm thinking of filing just a bit off the bottom of the claw so the case rim will slide under the extractor easier, but don't know if this will fix my problem.
Para Ord PXT extractor tuning
- Thread starter waktasz
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
PXT
Oh Lordy...Can anybody help out with this one? I'm 'fraid that I don't know much about that new-fangled extractor...except that it would seem like a solution in search of a problem. I haven't seen one yet...so that's just an opinion at this point.
I heard that Para's ad campaign claimed that their new, improved, whitened, brightened power extractor corrected the "weak link" in the 1911 design...which isn't a weak link at all if the bad old extractor is
made of the right stuff and correctly fitted and tensioned.
Not raggin' on ya, waktasz...but if a traditional extractor will go into the slide, that might be your best bet.
Anybody? Let's hear from the Para owners...
Oh Lordy...Can anybody help out with this one? I'm 'fraid that I don't know much about that new-fangled extractor...except that it would seem like a solution in search of a problem. I haven't seen one yet...so that's just an opinion at this point.
I heard that Para's ad campaign claimed that their new, improved, whitened, brightened power extractor corrected the "weak link" in the 1911 design...which isn't a weak link at all if the bad old extractor is
made of the right stuff and correctly fitted and tensioned.
Not raggin' on ya, waktasz...but if a traditional extractor will go into the slide, that might be your best bet.
Anybody? Let's hear from the Para owners...
Dave Sample
member
Another great solution to a non existant problem. Just try to get a new extractor from these factories and let the fun and games begin! I have heard bad things about them. I am like Tuner. i have never had any problems with the interior ones and it's a piece of cake to clean and adjust them. I can't help on this one. Besides, I do not allow Paras in the yard. I spent two hours last month on a Para 40 S&W and finally convinced the owner it was his reloads. Problem solved. Your problem may be a rough breech face.
pangris
Member
Paras aren't all bad. They allow for things no other 1911 can do.
While I'm in the middle of a standard fair single stack .45 right now with a light rail, all Caspian, kart, etc...
Next time around I'll be running a double stack .40 Para frame, Caspian upper - and a 10mm barrell... 16+1 Norma loads
While I'm in the middle of a standard fair single stack .45 right now with a light rail, all Caspian, kart, etc...
Next time around I'll be running a double stack .40 Para frame, Caspian upper - and a 10mm barrell... 16+1 Norma loads
I like it a lot also. Very accurate, but I just keep having this problem on the last round in the mag getting jammed up in the chamber. I guess it could use a few hundred more rounds to break it in, but I'm not used to breaking in a gun with my Glocks and SIG
Jim Watson
Member
The last round? Always?
If so, it MIGHT not be the extractor, could be magazine or barrel ramp flaws.
Help him with those, Tuner.
Bear in mind that Paras incorporate that other charming mutation to a proven design, the integral ramp barrel.
But if I felt I had to tinker with the extractor tension, I would try to find a softer spring before cutting on the hook.
If so, it MIGHT not be the extractor, could be magazine or barrel ramp flaws.
Help him with those, Tuner.
Bear in mind that Paras incorporate that other charming mutation to a proven design, the integral ramp barrel.
But if I felt I had to tinker with the extractor tension, I would try to find a softer spring before cutting on the hook.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Help?
Dunno if I can Jim...Them double-stacks is Gee...er...GREEK to me.
If the last round is gettin' caught between the slide and the barrel hood in a stove-pipe type jam, either the slide is oversprung or the magazine's undersprung. A new mag spring might do the trick...or if you've got an
18 or 20-pound recoil spring in it, go back to a 16 pounder and try again.
'Bout all I can tell ya...Don't suppose anybody has figgered out how to put a dimple on one of them there doublestack followers?
Luck!
Tuner
Dunno if I can Jim...Them double-stacks is Gee...er...GREEK to me.
If the last round is gettin' caught between the slide and the barrel hood in a stove-pipe type jam, either the slide is oversprung or the magazine's undersprung. A new mag spring might do the trick...or if you've got an
18 or 20-pound recoil spring in it, go back to a 16 pounder and try again.
'Bout all I can tell ya...Don't suppose anybody has figgered out how to put a dimple on one of them there doublestack followers?
Luck!
Tuner
Jim Watson
Member
I didn't see where he said it was a double stack. Was he in another thread? PO is now making guns to take 1911 magazines. Gun Tests really liked theirs... but it worked.
Yea it's a double stack. The slide is catching the rear of the round, not the middle of it too. The jam I get on the last round in the mag is the same jam I get if I don;t pull the slide all the way back and release while hand cycling.
Jim Watson
Member
My UNprofessional opinion is that the last round is presented at a flatter angle setting right on the follower and there is just not enough oomph to deflect and run it up the steep integral ramp. It does have an integral ramp, doesn't it?
What kind of ammo? Ball? If not, why not?
MY FLG would probably seize his mototool (actually a Foredom) and cut the ramp to approximate the feed angle of a real 1911. That is what he has done to a couple of my Springfields burdened with integral ramps. But if it didn't work you might be out a barrel so I am not recommending YOU do that to YOUR gun.
Send it back and let them tinker with it.
What kind of ammo? Ball? If not, why not?
MY FLG would probably seize his mototool (actually a Foredom) and cut the ramp to approximate the feed angle of a real 1911. That is what he has done to a couple of my Springfields burdened with integral ramps. But if it didn't work you might be out a barrel so I am not recommending YOU do that to YOUR gun.
Send it back and let them tinker with it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Details
waktasz said:
The jam I get on the last round in the mag is the same jam I get if I don;t pull the slide all the way back and release while hand cycling.
____________________
Okay...
Describe the jam in detail.
Does the round enter the chamber at all...or does it stop on the ramp?
If it enters the chamber...even a little...how far does it go and what is the estimated cartridge angle? About 45 degrees? More? Less?
If it doesn't enter the chamber...What area of the case is the bottom of the breechface making contact? At the back of the rim? In the extractor groove?
Factoids:
The most likely place to have a mag-related malfunction is on the top round
in a full magazine during a slidelock reload, or on the last round. This is due to extremes and varying spring tension as the magazine goes from maximum to munimum as it empties.
Most feed malfunctions with a 1911 occur on the top and last round, with
the last round being more frequent at a ratio of about 3:1 or so.
Fully 85% of feed malfunctions in a 1911 are magazine related, with
the extractor coming in at about 10%. The rest can be attributed to
ammunition tolerances, assuming that the ramp and throat geometry are in-spec and the breechface is smooth and correctly dimensioned...and the slide isn't oversprung. I can't overemphasize the effect that a too-heavy recoil spring can have on even an exceptional 1911. Many people mistakenly install an 18 or even a 20 pouind recoil spring in order to force-feed a gun with a return to battery problem, when something else is causing the problem...and bring on other issues related to slide timing and velocity.
The Devil's in the Details. Standin' by...
waktasz said:
The jam I get on the last round in the mag is the same jam I get if I don;t pull the slide all the way back and release while hand cycling.
____________________
Okay...
Describe the jam in detail. Does the round enter the chamber at all...or does it stop on the ramp?
If it enters the chamber...even a little...how far does it go and what is the estimated cartridge angle? About 45 degrees? More? Less?
If it doesn't enter the chamber...What area of the case is the bottom of the breechface making contact? At the back of the rim? In the extractor groove?
Factoids:
The most likely place to have a mag-related malfunction is on the top round
in a full magazine during a slidelock reload, or on the last round. This is due to extremes and varying spring tension as the magazine goes from maximum to munimum as it empties.
Most feed malfunctions with a 1911 occur on the top and last round, with
the last round being more frequent at a ratio of about 3:1 or so.
Fully 85% of feed malfunctions in a 1911 are magazine related, with
the extractor coming in at about 10%. The rest can be attributed to
ammunition tolerances, assuming that the ramp and throat geometry are in-spec and the breechface is smooth and correctly dimensioned...and the slide isn't oversprung. I can't overemphasize the effect that a too-heavy recoil spring can have on even an exceptional 1911. Many people mistakenly install an 18 or even a 20 pouind recoil spring in order to force-feed a gun with a return to battery problem, when something else is causing the problem...and bring on other issues related to slide timing and velocity.
The Devil's in the Details. Standin' by...
The round is partly entering the chamber and is getting caught with the case about 2/10 " into the chamber on a 45 degree angle. The slide is catching the rear of the round the way it should but the rim isn't sliding up the breachface under the extractor. This happens on my 3 Mecgar high caps and my 2 factory 10 rounders so I tend to think it's not the mags but it could be. The last round looks to be held by the feed lips in the same place that all the previous rounds are held, it doesn't appear to me to be coming up in a different position.
On a side note, when working the slide it feels like it hitches a bit when coming forward, even with the mag out, just as the top of the slide release is passing the takedown groove. I'm not sure if it's supposed to feel this way or what I just thought I'd mention it.
On a side note, when working the slide it feels like it hitches a bit when coming forward, even with the mag out, just as the top of the slide release is passing the takedown groove. I'm not sure if it's supposed to feel this way or what I just thought I'd mention it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Details
Okayyyyyyyy...Since it only happens on the last round, it's not likely anything wrong with the gun itself. If it was the gun, the stoppage would be at random places. Also...if it was the gun, it's likely that it would happen with any magazine, instead of just the ones mentioned.
The last round feeds differently than the others, and it's getting the least help in getting under the extractor as it gets to the release position. I'll
still call weak mag springs on the burp...and it's possible that the round is
also releasing a little late due to the length and shape of the feed lips.
Ammo with a slightly shorter everall length may feed perfectly, or at least hang up less often.
You can try an experiment to see if the mag springs are the problem. Cut several thicknesses of cardboard to fit the magazine all the way to the bottom. (Glue the shims together to make them easier to handle if you want.) Remove the spring, and stack the cardboard into the mag...about a half-inch thick should do...Put the spring on top of the cardboard shim and
replace the follower. Load three rounds into the mag and test-fire the gun.
The extra tension on the last round should show some improvement if the springs are the problem. I have a homemade steel shim that I cobbled up
for single-stack magazines that I use for just that purpose. If you have some scrap metal and you're handy with a grinder and a file, that would work even better...but cardboard will do for testing 3 or 4 magazines. If
it cures the problem, new springs are in your future...I recommend Wolff Extra-Power springs.
Standin' by...
Tuner
Okayyyyyyyy...Since it only happens on the last round, it's not likely anything wrong with the gun itself. If it was the gun, the stoppage would be at random places. Also...if it was the gun, it's likely that it would happen with any magazine, instead of just the ones mentioned.
The last round feeds differently than the others, and it's getting the least help in getting under the extractor as it gets to the release position. I'll
still call weak mag springs on the burp...and it's possible that the round is
also releasing a little late due to the length and shape of the feed lips.
Ammo with a slightly shorter everall length may feed perfectly, or at least hang up less often.
You can try an experiment to see if the mag springs are the problem. Cut several thicknesses of cardboard to fit the magazine all the way to the bottom. (Glue the shims together to make them easier to handle if you want.) Remove the spring, and stack the cardboard into the mag...about a half-inch thick should do...Put the spring on top of the cardboard shim and
replace the follower. Load three rounds into the mag and test-fire the gun.
The extra tension on the last round should show some improvement if the springs are the problem. I have a homemade steel shim that I cobbled up
for single-stack magazines that I use for just that purpose. If you have some scrap metal and you're handy with a grinder and a file, that would work even better...but cardboard will do for testing 3 or 4 magazines. If
it cures the problem, new springs are in your future...I recommend Wolff Extra-Power springs.
Standin' by...
Tuner
bountyhunter
member
I'll relay what I lerned beating on my 1640 for dozens of hours to get it to feed. No guarantees of applicability.
If it's a double stack like mine:
1) The Para followers are wierd. Take an empty mag and push down on the nose of the follower. It doesn't spring back. The last round will sometimes not have it's nose up right to feed. Look at the way the spring hooks to the follower underneath: it applies no pressure to the edges, just pushes up on the center. SUCKS.
2) The feed ramp on mine was too steep. It jammed a lot. Some serious polishing of the throat, rounding over the top of the ramp, and reshaping the ramp made mine feed perfectly.
It's possible a weak mag spring and tight feeding ramp/throat are the culprit.
3) My 1640 chokes and won't chamber if the extractor tension is set higher than 20 ounces. 15 works perfect.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Standin' by
Watchin' BH walk the man through this fix...Learnin' bout
doublestack 'Levens...
BH...Question: Did ya try puttin' a slight bend in the top of the
spring to get some extra tension on the front of the doublestack followers? Sometimes that works with single-stacks...
Watchin' BH walk the man through this fix...Learnin' bout
doublestack 'Levens...
BH...Question: Did ya try puttin' a slight bend in the top of the
spring to get some extra tension on the front of the doublestack followers? Sometimes that works with single-stacks...
Dave Sample
member
The first thing we did with hi-cap mags in the good old days is replace the springs with new Wolff springs. The Para springs were not very good. They also have feed ramps that are strange and steep. I built one of the first three Hi-Cap 40 S&W's in the country and had 80 hours in the lower end trying to make it look like something as it was the worst casting I had ever seen. I used a Quadra-lock barrel and comp and made it run 100% but it broke me of Para hi-craps.
pangris
Member
I guess times must change. My P14 ran perfect at Thunder Ranch. Teddy did go through it but even before that I only have 2 malfs in 2000 rounds. I mainly had the work done to get the cast parts out of there.
I'm sending it to EGW for trigger work so I will have them look it over and do any reliability work on it then if I can't fix it eventually. Really wish I could get it running myself, I;m not as smooth as I thought I was I guess
bountyhunter
member
Can't. The followers have a small post in the middle (underneath side) of the plastic follower. The top of the spring is a small coil loop that just wraps around the post, so all the force is pushing straight up at the center. Sucks.
bountyhunter
member
Mine used to do that a lot. There are actually a number of things that all add up to it that can be tried.
NOTE: The "45 degree" jam with the nose in the thraot has the round caught at three places: The front egde of the mag feed lips, the top of the feed ramp, and the top inside surface of the throat. No surprise, massaging those places fixed my feed problems.
1) Feed lips on the mag. Some times the inner edges are sharp and dig into the brass. Rounding them smooth at the front where the round is trying to get free at the jam point sometimes helps.
2) Round over the top of the ramp. A little extra clearance here helps the rond get over the hump and in without so much drag. Wrap #600 paper around a drill shank and use oil. Hand sand only, don't go nuts with it.
3) polish the inside top surface of the throat. Again, 600 paper on a drill shank sand straigt in and out until the inside is smooth.
I will say my gun jams a lot when the extractor tension is too high (above 20 ounces on mine). If that is causing your jams, I don't know how to fix one of those new Frankenstien extractors.
Does the lower edge of the groove (where the round rolls into) on that thing have a rounded out surface like the standard 1911 extractor does? That helps the round get under the hook without so much fight.
The extractor is pretty sharp all around, I tried filing and sanding it down some but it didn't seem to fix the probleem. I'll try polishing the ramp and barrel throat, there must be a pretty sharp edge on the top because it is leaving marks on the cases that get stuck up in there.
Check out my terrible description of my extractor in the picture below. Is the bottom of it supposed to have that protruding lip? I'm used to them being square all around. That part seems like it could be what is getting hung up on the case rim, I'll try sanding that down too. At this point I am way frustrated so if I butcher an extractor I'm not terribly worried.
Check out my terrible description of my extractor in the picture below. Is the bottom of it supposed to have that protruding lip? I'm used to them being square all around. That part seems like it could be what is getting hung up on the case rim, I'll try sanding that down too. At this point I am way frustrated so if I butcher an extractor I'm not terribly worried.
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bountyhunter
member
I don't really know what one of those new extractors is suppose to look like, or why it would have a lip on it. I'll bet Goerge Wdege at para will send you a new one if you want to replace it. He gave me one for my 1640 and it was a lot better than the original.
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