Para's LDA - opinions?

[Krag]

While I will no doubt be flamed for saying it, I believe that the LDA trigger system is the way JMB should have designed the 1911 pistol to begin with.

I believe it offers all the mechanical and ergonomic positives of the 1911 pistol with a far safer trigger system.

 

[Zach S]

I dont see how its safer, unless one cant follow rule three.

As for the LDA being the way that JMB should have designed it, I disagree. The Army would have said "no" anyway since it is such a PITA to take apart and reassemble, from what I understand. Never tried it myself. I have detail stripped and reassembled a 1911 blindfolded though (I have a boring life).

 

[Smoke]

Buzzzzzz.

Sorry, wrong answer, but thanks for playing and enjoy your nice parting gifts.

The LDA is not "safer" than a single action 1911. Please do tell why the LDA is safer....cause the hammer is down? Both the LDA and SA 1911 share a similar thumb safety. Both have the series 80 firing pin safety. So what is it? Longer tirgger pull.

I've said this time and again, so I'll repeat it once more for your benefit.
The LDA is (IMO) the best DAO trigger currently in production. But I don't like DAO.

Smoke

 

[Sean Smith]

People will just believe any random crap they want without reference to any facts. So it isn't worth arguing about. But what the heck.

All Series 80 1911s are drop safe, and indeed are hit-the-hammer-with-a-hammer-and-it-still-won't-discharge-safe. Indeed, getting even a Series 70 (or equivalent) 1911 to discharge due to dropping/mechanical failure takes a pretty tremendous effort.

So mechanically speaking, there is no safety advantage to the LDA system. It simply does not exist. Hammer down may be WORSE, in fact. See, you can just hit the hammer and it will nudge the firing pin; with the hammer cocked you actually have to break the hammer and/or sear to get it to move forward and contact the firing pin (and it is still restrained by the trigger-controlled Series 80 firing pin block, and depending on how you broke it, the half-cock...).

So what is left? An inferior trigger pull for actually hitting the target? That's not a safety feature, because no gun is remotely safe if your finger is on the trigger when it doesn't belong there. And in every competition where it is allowed, single-action triggers utterly dominate.

To conclude: LDA is a gimmick for making a 1911 look less scary. It has no substantive advantages. If you happen to subjectively prefer that kind of trigger pull, that's fine; to each their own. But to claim it is objectively superior on that basis is just silly.

 

[Krag]

So as to placate you gentlemen I will expand on my statement. If the SA pistol (1911 specificially) is so "safe" how come it has been rejected for service use by the vast majority of police departments (I'm not talking about SWAT/Tactical units)?

The problem with the SA pistol, as I see it, is that the vast majority of shooters (civilian and LEOs) do not have the level of experience and/or training that allows them to use it in a high pressure, life threatening situation. For those persons who do, it is indeed a practical weapon but for the majority of "average" shooters I feel a pistol with a longer trigger pull would be a more practical choice. Most of these people will never get the necessary amount of training and you know it.

I help teach the shooting course required in my state to obtain a CCW permit. As a matter of practice we attempt to dissuade those students with little experience from using SA pistols. We've never had any complaints about it.

For those persons who like the ergonomics and operating drill of the 1911 pistol, but who don't feel confident with a SA trigger, the LDA is a wonderful alternative. We have a local PD with an officer's choice handgun policy - but they forbid SA pistols - and several of them carry LDAs. I use one in USPSA Production competition and can shoot it just as fast and accurately as my SA Para 16.40.

Well, that's my 2/100s of a $ worth of opinion.

 

[Sean Smith]

If the SA pistol (1911 specificially) is so "safe" how come it has been rejected for service use by the vast majority of police departments (I'm not talking about SWAT/Tactical units)?

I dunno. Police like Glocks, and have tons and tons of NDs with them. Maybe if we want to prevent NDs, we whould use whatever the police AREN'T using.

What I REALLY think is that it is a matter of keeping your finger off the damn trigger, not the hardware's "fault" either way.

Anyway, isn't your argument akin to saying, "don't use what the cops who know their weapons use, use what the cops who don't care about their guns that much use!"

I help teach the shooting course required in my state to obtain a CCW permit. As a matter of practice we attempt to dissuade those students with little experience from using SA pistols. We've never had any complaints about it.

Of course they didn't complain, they are novices. How would they know to complain? That's like saying a novice PC user didn't complain when you told them all to paint their mice blue. It is true, but it doesn't really tell you much.

 

[rockstar.esq]

I've heard the loyal continue to laud the 1911 as JMB's definitive pistol. Bear in mind that the Hi power is a DA/SA in 9mm that was designed after the 1911 in an effort to improve on the ideas brought forth in the 1911! To my way of thinking, the only thing that isn't spot on about the Hi power is it's caliber. I think the LDA is a great idea since you don't really loose anything in the translation. You can still carry the gun cocked and locked! It never ceases to amuse me that the same people crying about how their cherished "Match Grade Uber smooth trigger" could be compromised on such a gun. The same gun that recieves evaluations based on "acceptable combat accuracy"! If it's got a great trigger yet delivers minute of moose accuracy I fail to see a valid argument.

 

[FW]

Bear in mind that the Hi power is a DA/SA in 9mm that was designed after the 1911 in an effort to improve on the ideas brought forth in the 1911!

No it's not. The Hi Power is a SINGLE ACTION pistol.

 

[Technosavant]

Some police departments steer clear of the 1911 for two reasons: liability and training dollars. The 1911 does require a bit more knowledge to operate properly, and such training costs money. Also, they are afraid that a 4-5 pound trigger pull will cause their officers to get sued more often than a heavier pull on a Glock. Mix in the fact that Glock sells their guns to LEOs at a fraction of the prices of even the budget 1911s, and it isn't hard to see why they make the choice.

As for opinions on the LDA, I am neutral. From what I have read, it works well (even if the trigger does look funky). I still don't buy the "safer" argument- the 1911 is safe enough as it is without adding a DA function. "Don't pull the trigger until you REALLY want to fire" seems to apply to SA, DA, and DAO firearms equally. A double action pull won't save your hide if the shoot is unjustified, and an SA pull won't sink you if it is.

 

[Sean Smith]

Also, they are afraid that a 4-5 pound trigger pull will cause their officers to get sued more often than a heavier pull on a Glock.

Going from 5 to 5.5 pounds must make all the difference in the world!

 

[halvey]

I believe it offers all the mechanical and ergonomic positives of the 1911 pistol with a far safer trigger system.

Cha CHING!! And another falls for the pretty full page ads in every rag.

 

[flip180]

Actually it is more like 7.5#'s when your start adding the new york trigger spring and such.

Flip.

 

[halvey]

Massad Ayoob always talks about the 8lb New York trigger. So he must be right.

 

[G. Wedge]

So mechanically speaking, there is no safety advantage to the LDA system. It simply does not exist.

Hammer down may be WORSE, in fact. See, you can just hit the hammer and it will nudge the firing pin;

with the hammer cocked you actually have to break the hammer and/or sear to get it to move forward and contact the firing pin (and it is still restrained by the trigger-controlled Series 80 firing pin block, and depending on how you broke it, the half-cock...).

I guess I have to disagree with this statement since the LDA design is such that:
1) When the pistol is cocked, the hammer returns to a position about 1/8" away from the firing pin, and it is not possible to "nudge" or dislodge the hammer in any way for it to contact the firing pin. By design, it is prevented from doing so. In this mode, it is also not possible to release the sear, as the sear is, for all intents and purposes, "held captive" by the hammer. The sear cannot be released unless the hammer has been brought rearward to the "ready" position by the pulling of the trigger.
2) Every pistol manufactured by Para utilizes a series 80 type firing pin safety. In the LDA, by design, this safety is disengaged by the pulling of the trigger. Unless the trigger has been pulled, the firing pin does not have access to the primer.

Sorry for butting in gentlemen.

Regards,

George

 

[Sean Smith]

"1) When the pistol is cocked, the hammer returns to a position about 1/8" away from the firing pin, and it is not possible to "nudge" or dislodge the hammer in any way for it to contact the firing pin. By design, it is prevented from doing so. In this mode, it is also not possible to release the sear, as the sear is, for all intents and purposes, "held captive" by the hammer. The sear cannot be released unless the hammer has been brought rearward to the "ready" position by the pulling of the trigger."

Interesting. I don't see how that is any safer than the original design, however. The hammer is back on the 1911, but the 1911 has a half-cock to catch the hammer if it falls without the trigger being pulled, and a firing pin block on top of that. I mean, what's left, painting puppies on the side of the gun so it isn't scary?

"2) Every pistol manufactured by Para utilizes a series 80 type firing pin safety. In the LDA, by design, this safety is disengaged by the pulling of the trigger. Unless the trigger has been pulled, the firing pin does not have access to the primer."

Um, yes, I know that. Most real 1911s also have a firing pin block, to include Colt, Kimber and Para's non-LDA 1911s. So it is not an advantage of the LDA system.

 

[akviper]

To quote one much wiser than me, "an ingenious solution to a non-existant problem."

 

[sgt127]

I have to carry a Glock at work. I was carrying a Govt Model for many years. I think the Govt model is much safer than the Glock. The safety on the trigger never did much for me. It has about the same weight of trigger pull, but, the Glock doesn't "Look" like its about to go off. I think more agencies are going with the Glock because its cheap and very easy to teach someone to shoot it. With the Govt model, you have to remember to take the safety off. Its also alot safer it someone gets it away from you.

 

[mainmech48]

While there may well be no "substantive advantage" to the LDA system, I can't come up with any substantive disadvantage either.

I don't have any more trouble hitting where I'm aiming my Para C7.45 than I do with any other "Officer's" sized 1911. The same system on a full-sized 1911 doesn't seem to slow Todd Jarrett or many other users more skilled than I down in competition, either.

While the whole idea of the system may well be something of a compromise to PC mentality, it's one that I personally can live with. Of all the TDA and DAO systems that I've tried over the years, it requires the least adaptation of technique to acquire a comparable level of effectiveness, IMHO.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

One potential disadvantage that has been noted is that the LDA requires a long and slow stroke to reset the striker/hammer, as opposed to the very quick reset of the Glock. Probably not relevant vs the SA, though, since we all practice our tap, rack, bang, right?

 

[Technosavant]

Most 1911s do NOT have any kind of firing pin block.

Colt (series 80), Kimber (series II), S&W, and Sig have them, but most of the rest do without (with no ill effects). Springfield uses a .38 super firing pin made of titanium to pass the drop test requirement.

Honestly, I don't see the point in a FPS for a 1911. If the hammer and sear are in such foul shape that it is prone to letting go, there is a seriously incompetent and negligent owner or gunsmith responsible; too many guns have fired thousands upon thousands of rounds without such a problem occurring. Besides, if a person will let such a thing happen to the hammer and sear, what makes you assume the FPS is still functional?

What there needs to be is a button to press when you are really sure you want to fire the gun. Oh wait- we call it the TRIGGER.

OK, I'll stop ranting now.

 

[bountyhunter]

While I will no doubt be flamed for saying it, I believe that the LDA trigger system is the way JMB should have designed the 1911 pistol to begin with.

I believe it offers all the mechanical and ergonomic positives of the 1911 pistol with a far safer trigger system.

Then I can say with almost complete certainty you have never worked on one of them. JMB built the perfect gun, the LDA is just another aberration. For the record, I really like shooting my LDA, but I could never trust it. The design is too complicated and the piece parts are not what I would bet my life on. Just my opinion.

 

[bountyhunter]

I've said this time and again, so I'll repeat it once more for your benefit.
The LDA is (IMO) the best DAO trigger currently in production. But I don't like DAO.

Smoke

The LDA is not a DAO design in any sense of that term. A DAO has restrike capability if the round misfires by repulling the trigger, the LDA can not because the slide must cycle to recock the internal cam.

The DAO deflects the mainspring with the trigger pull, the LDA deflects and sets the cam using slide action.... which means if the cam releases internally (slips off the sear) you have an uncocked gun and you won't know it until you pull the trigger with no boom.

The LDA is actually a single action firing mechanism with a "take up pre travel" motion to position the hammer before the sear releases. I'm not sure there is a specific term for it, but it ain't DAO.

As I said, the LDA is fun to shoot, but it has more excuses for failing than George Bush. I would never bet my life on it.

 

[Krag]

I need to make an observation. Many of the persons who condemn the LDA (or DA/SA, DOA, Safe Action) pistols tend to feel that everyone should have the same level of training and experience that they do with 1911-type pistols.

I wholeheartedly agree BUT (and let's be perfectly honest about it) we don't live in a perfect world and the vast majority of guns owners (civilian & LEOs) can't, won't or choose not to achieve that level of competence. That's why I am an advocate of the DAO pistol and/or DA revolver for the "average" handgun owner. It provides them with the necessary defensive equipment that they may need with an extra modicum of safety for themselves - and others.

I find a strange streak of arrogance in many 1911 fans (among whom I happen to number myself) that ANY handgun that does not function as does a 1911 is somehow inferior. And what is ever worse they tend to denigrate those persons who (for whatever reasons) feel better served with a different style of handgun. I hate to say it (and will probably be flamed for doing so) but it smacks of elitism.

 

[bountyhunter]

While there may well be no "substantive advantage" to the LDA system, I can't come up with any substantive disadvantage either.

I could write an encyclopedia, but one word may say it best:

KISS

keep it simple, stupid.

 

[Krag]

Bountyhunter - there is NO such thing as the "pefect" handgun. JMB, Luger, Brochardt, Mauser, Walther, Tokarev, Saive, and Glock have all tried - and in doing so have advanced the technology significantly - but none has been successful - at least not yet!

If I used a 1911 type pistol for CCW or any defensive purpose (which I don't), it would be an LDA.

"Mr. Spock, set your phaser on stun!"