Parents try to ban Adlous Huxley and Robert Heinlein
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Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
If a 10th grader can't handle the "question everything" position of Stranger, how is he/she gonna make it through college? At least Heinlein's books are fiction, fantasy, not real. Out in the real world, expecially on campus, the "question everything" midset is very, very real. Better to learn how to handle it in book form early on, than to be unprepared for the real thing.
Besides, if a kid can't handle things like Stranger or Brave New World, shouldn't that be considered a deficiency that needs to be addressed? How better to learn to cope with such "deviant" material than to increase your exposure to it??
There are plenty of good books out there, and most of 'em are worthwhile precisely because they contain "questionable" or "inappropriate" material. I read many such books as a kid, and I'm better off for it. Perhaps what these kids need is more exposure to this kind of material, not less.
Which Heinlein book is it that portrays Mama Maureen loosing her virginity at the ripe old age of 14? Maybe we oughta be sending that one to the 10th graders as well...
- Roland
Besides, if a kid can't handle things like Stranger or Brave New World, shouldn't that be considered a deficiency that needs to be addressed? How better to learn to cope with such "deviant" material than to increase your exposure to it??
There are plenty of good books out there, and most of 'em are worthwhile precisely because they contain "questionable" or "inappropriate" material. I read many such books as a kid, and I'm better off for it. Perhaps what these kids need is more exposure to this kind of material, not less.
Which Heinlein book is it that portrays Mama Maureen loosing her virginity at the ripe old age of 14? Maybe we oughta be sending that one to the 10th graders as well...
- Roland
DigitalWarrior
Member
I know I walk on treachorous ground here but...
If you don't want your kids to do something, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to read Stranger in a Strange Land, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to see other lifestyles, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to learn evolution, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to believe guns are evil, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to be capitalists, tell them not to.
LEAVE MY KIDS OUT OF IT!!!
If you don't want your kids to do something, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to read Stranger in a Strange Land, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to see other lifestyles, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to learn evolution, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to believe guns are evil, tell them not to.
If you don't want your kids to be capitalists, tell them not to.
LEAVE MY KIDS OUT OF IT!!!
DigitalWarrior
Member
Probably "To Sail Beyond the Sunset". Incest all over his Lazarus Long books.
You do have to admit Heinlen was a freakin perv.
He said some really cool things, but damn...
You do have to admit Heinlen was a freakin perv.
He said some really cool things, but damn...
And likely a cannibal at that, right?
And Clancy is a communist and terrorist, right?
I think some of you missed the point. He went out of his way to question taboo. Rather than tell his characters to blindly accept everything that was verboten simply because it was verboten, he'd have them explore the reasoning behind it and would throw in wild "what if?" scenarios to question if you are applying logic or just kicking in with your cultural programming.
I still use plenty of programming ...
gunsmith
member
SIASL/hippy handbook
But a good read,I wish I had read it when I was younger.
I read it 2yrs ago and enjoyed most of it,but the sex stuff is kinda
dated...
I like Heinliens other books alot more.
I can grok where those parents are coming from with siasl
the book does encourage sex stuff the parents may be uncomfortable
with. they could just have their kids read something else.
But BNW should be required reading in every high school.
It does not promote taking "happy pills" etc
just like farenhiet 451 does not promote burning books.
How does this relate to guns?
But a good read,I wish I had read it when I was younger.
I read it 2yrs ago and enjoyed most of it,but the sex stuff is kinda
dated...
I like Heinliens other books alot more.
I can grok where those parents are coming from with siasl
the book does encourage sex stuff the parents may be uncomfortable
with. they could just have their kids read something else.
But BNW should be required reading in every high school.
It does not promote taking "happy pills" etc
just like farenhiet 451 does not promote burning books.
How does this relate to guns?
rock jock
Member
I'm surprised no one has replied to my suggestion.
Parental envolvment
As much as I like RAH (well the 1st half of his works ), I can say it is nice to see some parents at least a little involved in there school system.
As for SISL it is a marker book for me, any thing that RAH wrote before it I will probably like, most of what followed it I just about will not read.
RAH & L.Ron both went a little wacky later in there litary careers(sp) L.Ron
decied He was a god and RAH figured that there wasn't one.
I am persuaded that BOTH are wrong...
As much as I like RAH (well the 1st half of his works ), I can say it is nice to see some parents at least a little involved in there school system.
As for SISL it is a marker book for me, any thing that RAH wrote before it I will probably like, most of what followed it I just about will not read.
RAH & L.Ron both went a little wacky later in there litary careers(sp) L.Ron
decied He was a god and RAH figured that there wasn't one.
I am persuaded that BOTH are wrong...
..let me make sure I understand this. The idea is to keep these teenagers in sound proofed rooms with no external stimuli until they are 18.
Then we send them off to college where there is NO SUPERVISION as to what they watch, read, drink, smoke, think, do, etc.....and they
Go Freakin' WILD!!!!
makes good sense to me :banghead: !!!
Marko Kloos
Moderator Emeritus
I fully support the efforts of the pea-brained book-banning crowd.
There's no better guarantee that the books in question will actually be read by teenagers than to put them on a "banned" list.
There's no better guarantee that the books in question will actually be read by teenagers than to put them on a "banned" list.
JeanC
Member
Someone asked about Toni Morrison, yes she does get banned. Anyone interested, here is the link to the 100 most frequently challenged books from 1990-2000:
http://www.ala.org/Content/Navigati..._Frequently_Challenged_Books_of_1990-2000.htm
http://www.ala.org/Content/Navigati..._Frequently_Challenged_Books_of_1990-2000.htm
jimpeel
Member
rock jock
Member
I admit that I have never read Heinlein. But, based on the posters on this board, he openly promotes an agnostic/atheistic worldview in his books, yes? So, I take it that all of you would be equally incensed if a book openly promoting a Judeo-Christian viewpoint was also banned from the required reading list, right?
OP
OP
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
In a word?
Yes.
rock jock
Member
Hmm. Somehow I doubt that.
Carlos
Member
Unbelievable. Women didn't even read the book and wants it banned anyway. She must be really really special.
This stuff really makes Carlos mad. :banghead: PC is going to be the death of me.
Think I'll go to the library after work and pick up a Heinlein I haven't read yet. One favorite was Number of the Beast. Read SIASL over a decade ago.
This stuff really makes Carlos mad. :banghead: PC is going to be the death of me.
Think I'll go to the library after work and pick up a Heinlein I haven't read yet. One favorite was Number of the Beast. Read SIASL over a decade ago.
Rock_Jock,
As a Christian, I find few things more repugnant or inexplicable than the refusal of most of my fellow Christians to follow the Golden Rule in their dealings with other people's children.
That is, I find it offensive if someone wants to indoctrinate my children with beliefs I do not hold, and I find no reason whatsoever to condone fellow Christians in their attempts to indoctrinate other people's children with beliefs their parents do not hold.
That's one of the many, many reasons my family has withdrawn from the public school system: we simply could no longer stomach the coersive nature of that system. The whole thing is just wrong.
Neither the atheists, nor the agnostics, nor the Christians, Jews, Muslims or Wiccans should be able to force everyone else's children to accept their worldview. Since the system no longer teaches all the worldviews (if indeed it ever did) -- where does that leave us?
I can't stop my fellow Christians from forcing their worldview down everyone else's throats. But I can and I have disassociated my own family from the system rather than joining that very ugly bandwagon.
pax
A general State education is a mere contrivance for molding people to be exactly like one another; and as the mold in which casts them is that which pleases the dominant power in the government, whether this be monarch, an aristocracy, or a majority of the existing generation; in proportion as it is efficient and successful, it establishes a despotism over the mind, leading by a natural tendency over the body. ... All attempts by the State to bias the conclusions of its citizens on disputed subjects are evil. -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty (1859)
As a Christian, I find few things more repugnant or inexplicable than the refusal of most of my fellow Christians to follow the Golden Rule in their dealings with other people's children.
That is, I find it offensive if someone wants to indoctrinate my children with beliefs I do not hold, and I find no reason whatsoever to condone fellow Christians in their attempts to indoctrinate other people's children with beliefs their parents do not hold.
That's one of the many, many reasons my family has withdrawn from the public school system: we simply could no longer stomach the coersive nature of that system. The whole thing is just wrong.
Neither the atheists, nor the agnostics, nor the Christians, Jews, Muslims or Wiccans should be able to force everyone else's children to accept their worldview. Since the system no longer teaches all the worldviews (if indeed it ever did) -- where does that leave us?
I can't stop my fellow Christians from forcing their worldview down everyone else's throats. But I can and I have disassociated my own family from the system rather than joining that very ugly bandwagon.
pax
A general State education is a mere contrivance for molding people to be exactly like one another; and as the mold in which casts them is that which pleases the dominant power in the government, whether this be monarch, an aristocracy, or a majority of the existing generation; in proportion as it is efficient and successful, it establishes a despotism over the mind, leading by a natural tendency over the body. ... All attempts by the State to bias the conclusions of its citizens on disputed subjects are evil. -- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty (1859)
In some of them he tends to, you betcha. In others, he's silent or subdued on the subject.
In SiaSL, he gets his digs in for quite a few religions, and defends aspects of the same in the next breath.
Absolutely. No question about it.
And as I said before, I'd have no problem with providing an alternate list for the children of those who are easily offended, and those who look for ways they can be offended - as you suggested might be the "libertarian approach".
But this ban wasn't about a given religious or atheist author. It was about the presence of "arousing" material in a few books.
jimpeel
Member
rock jock
So your wry comment
I am vehemently anti-Communist but I would be incensed if there were a movement afoot to ban Mao's Little Red Book or Marx's Communist Manifesto. Look at the pictures I posted and tell me that it would be right to do that with ANY book regardless of stripe.
So your wry comment
may apply to some; but the fact that this comment was made only eight minutes after your interrogatory casts doubt on the veracity of your desire for an answer. Regardless, you have mine.
Privatize the damn schools already!
This is why we need to privatise the schools. Get the state out of it... not only would we get better education for our kids (Even the poorest ones) for less money... but the christians could have their own schools and teach thier kids what they want, and everyone else could have their own schools and teach their kids what THEY want.
Time to stop this BS tug of war over kids, trying to force schools to indoctrinate everyone's kids based on the christian faith.
And if we did this, EVERY kid would get a better education, as schools would be judged on quality for price, instead of being funded more when they do poorly, as they are now.
This is why we need to privatise the schools. Get the state out of it... not only would we get better education for our kids (Even the poorest ones) for less money... but the christians could have their own schools and teach thier kids what they want, and everyone else could have their own schools and teach their kids what THEY want.
Time to stop this BS tug of war over kids, trying to force schools to indoctrinate everyone's kids based on the christian faith.
And if we did this, EVERY kid would get a better education, as schools would be judged on quality for price, instead of being funded more when they do poorly, as they are now.
sm
member
A lot of the books I read in school have already made the banned list. We read Huck Finn, Catcher In The Rye, Utopia, 1984, Animal Farm...
I took my nephew a few years ago to a Children's Theatre to see Huck Finn , he then wondered why it was not on his school reading list. Whew, I explained, then I gave him Animal Farm , he took it to school...asked not to bring back to school. This Uncle asked his teacher if she had read these and others...nope because they were banned in her school,and therefore must not be good for developing thinking.
I gave her copies and suggested SHE determine for herself by thinking --not determine based on what a GROUP determines. Nephew has a better relationship with this teacher...even years later, she thanked me and actually has changed her outlook on gummit and meddlin'.
Beside's I read this stuff and turned out allright
I took my nephew a few years ago to a Children's Theatre to see Huck Finn , he then wondered why it was not on his school reading list. Whew, I explained, then I gave him Animal Farm , he took it to school...asked not to bring back to school. This Uncle asked his teacher if she had read these and others...nope because they were banned in her school,and therefore must not be good for developing thinking.
I gave her copies and suggested SHE determine for herself by thinking --not determine based on what a GROUP determines. Nephew has a better relationship with this teacher...even years later, she thanked me and actually has changed her outlook on gummit and meddlin'.
Beside's I read this stuff and turned out allright
Attention to TX parents, your teenage boys are masturbating to the cover of Cosmo and Shape magazine - now on sale at the Supermarket. They see breasts on the Internet.
Ban it all!!
Just another set of Americans who would happily join a Christian version of the Taliban.
Ban it all!!
Just another set of Americans who would happily join a Christian version of the Taliban.
No, longeyes, here in the bible belt, they'd love that idea in 1984 - they'd hope it would catch on. 
sw, I'm sure that every 16 year old has at least a couple of friends whose parents don't have a filter on the home computer - kids these days don't need Glamour and National Geographic like we did.
[Not gun-related, IMO, FWIW.]
sw, I'm sure that every 16 year old has at least a couple of friends whose parents don't have a filter on the home computer - kids these days don't need Glamour and National Geographic like we did.
[Not gun-related, IMO, FWIW.]
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