PAYPAL (Rant)

[Zero_DgZ]

Ding dang it.

So I just sold a couple of M9 magazines in this very forum. Click "back" a couple times, scroll down to "Accessories," there you go.

This just arrived in my inbox:

Dear (me),

The PayPal User Agreement states that PayPal, at its sole discretion,
reserves the right to close an account for any violation of the User
Agreement, including the Acceptable Use Policy.

Under the Acceptable Use Policy, PayPal may not be used to send or receive
payments for any firearm, in addition to certain firearm parts and
accessories, ammunition, destructive devices, militaria and ordnance,
weapons, and knives. The complete Acceptable Use Policy addressing
Firearms, Weapons, and Knives can be found at the following URL:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside&ed=weapons

We are hereby notifying you that, after a recent review of your account
activity, it has been determined that you are in violation of PayPal's
Acceptable Use Policy. Therefore, your account has been closed.

If you have a remaining balance, you may withdraw the funds to your bank
account. Information on how to withdraw funds from your PayPal Account can
be found at our Help Center.

You will need to remove all references to PayPal from your website(s)
and/or auction(s). This includes not only removing PayPal as a payment
option, but also the PayPal logo and/or shopping cart. We thank you in
advance for your cooperation. If you have any questions, please contact
the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy Department at [email protected].

Sincerely,
PayPal Acceptable Use Policy Department
PayPal, an eBay Company

Of course, back when I signed up to PayPal the only policy was "no firearms." Not "no firearm parts whatsoever," and nobody told me of the change.

I'm ticked, yes, but I should have seen this coming. It just goes to show that some people have absolutely nothing better to do than troll user accounts looking for firearms related stuff. The offending words in this case were three: "15 round magazines," no other description, as entered by one of the kind folks who bought a few of my mags. Coulda been for airsoft, for all they know. But lo - it conflicted with their internal politics.

Why does it matter? This is how paranoid we have to be in this day and age. Living in constant fear that "the man" is going to take exception to our hobby one way or another and lock us out of it a little bit at a time. Doesn't matter if "the man" is the federal or local government, your bank, or your internet service provider.

Consider this: What if the government doesn't ban guns? What if your banks declare that they won't give you a mortgage if you will have firearms in your house, your auto insurance company invalidates your coverage as long as you have a firearm in your car, or your ISP shuts off your access as soon as they find out you're using their service to read THR?

There are more people than those in congress who can legislate away our freedoms.

I guess this is just a poster case of an advertisement for Gearpay. Use it.

Man, this just completes my day.

 

[kfranz]

Consider this: What if the government doesn't ban guns? What if your banks declare that they won't give you a mortgage if you will have firearms in your house, your auto insurance company invalidates your coverage as long as you have a firearm in your car, or your ISP shuts off your access as soon as they find out you're using their service to read THR?

Sorry you got your money taken, but the examples you listed are not restrictions on your freedom.

 

[Old Fuff]

Rather the use any of these funds-transfer services I suggest you accept U.S. Postal Money Orders as an alternative. In several instances where the seller specified "pay by Pay-Pal" I ask him/her if a USPS Money Order would be O.K., and all of them said "yes."

Pay-Pal and eBay are no pals of mine...

Keep in mind that if sellers do accept USPS Money Orders or Bank Certified Checks it is Pay-Pal that will lose in the end.

 

[69Chevy]

I hate Ebay/PayPal/Half in general due in part to the stupid crap they pull such as:

1. Constantly raising rates. $40 to list a car that never sold is a crock.

2. My friend bought a book from half.com and the seller never sent it. My friend files a complaint. 5 weeks later and half.com has done nothing and has yet to refund my friends money(half.com has his money, not the seller).

3. I sold some high end guitars on ebay for a neighbor. Maybe a total of $20k worth. They then threatened to pull my auctions if I didn't come up with an explaniation on why I was selling some much stuff and send in photo ID.

4. Half.com taking 2 months to refund my step-sisters money for a book she bought and never got, after the seller said he was out of stock.

5. Getting my auctions pulled for simply stating that I don't accept paypal unless you want to add the service charge on top of the final price. When I rarely use them, I only take money orders or cash.

6. My friend deals a lot with world war two items, american and german. Back a few years ago he use to list a lot of german stuff. Of course it had swastikas. They told him it was hate related and it couldn't show the swastika. He puts up auctions where the pictures were censored. Still got pulled and not only did they say it was "hate material" they even rewrote their policy to include all the militaria he tries to sell.

I try to not to ever use ebay's services unless I absolutely have to.

 

[obm]

as stupid as their rules are, you did violate their terms of agreement by selling magazines with capacity greater than 10 rounds.

why wouldn't they check accounts for violations of their terms? do you think they are picking on just gun owners? they check for any violations in their terms of agreement because of fear of liability, founded or not.

ebay/paypal checks for all sorts of violations, selling of body parts, child pornography, protected artifacts, etc. we gun owners aren't that special that they would just pick on us.

their dumb-ass corporate lawyers are to blame.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Agreed, but we're special enough for them to pick on us.

 

[Erebus]

Unfortunately the way people like Bloomberg are sueing for crimes commited in NYC I wouldn't want to be anywhere in the chain of possession of a firearm that ends up in NYC in any way, shape or form. They are a big company with deep pockets and a guy like Bloomberg would love to make a statement and make an example. They have to cover their butts. I doubt it has to do with any anti-gun sentiments that the company has, just an anti-lawsuit sentiment.

I don't like that they have that policy and I wish they would stand against such foolishness, but I understand.

 

[BobTheTomato]

They dont want anti gunners to sue them when someone gets shot and had used pay pal.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Consider this: What if the government doesn't ban guns? What if your banks declare that they won't give you a mortgage if you will have firearms in your house, your auto insurance company invalidates your coverage as long as you have a firearm in your car, or your ISP shuts off your access as soon as they find out you're using their service to read THR?

Someone would open a bank that would lend to people with guns, an insurance company that would insure people with guns, and an ISP that is gun friendly, and they'd make a fortune. Enterprising Americans will recognize the opportunity and take advantage of it.

PayPal/eBay has it's own rules that are clearly stated, and they do send out emails when they make changes to their policies - they don't specify the changes in the emails but they do include a link to their policies page. As it turns out, their policies are very unfriendly to sportsmen. Some enterpising Americans recognized this opportunity and started www.gearpay.com.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Two things that many semi-libertarians do that bug me (not picking on anyone personally):

a) dissing the free market

b) complaining of "violating my constitutional rights" on private property that you have no obligation to enter, or online services that you have no obligation to utilize.

Getting some higher legal authority to force a company to play by our rules would be in direct violation of individual (and collective) liberty.

When the Public Library, National Park Service, and the Post Office pass dumb rules (which they do), then by all means let us object.

-MV

 

[2PAK]

Craigs List

Not that this is an alternative to Pay Pal or an alternative for firearms and related items but, interesting none the less. I have never used Craiglist before last week. I wanted to sell my Treadmill and was going to eBay it. Someone mentioned Craigslist was the way to go and that I would sell it fast there. Each large city has its own Craigslist. I posted it on Firday morning with four pics and a good narrative and within one hour had my first call. I sold it the next day to a guy that drove 2 hours one way with $1,500 cash in his pocket to test it, purchase it and drive it home.

My point is, Craigslist may be an alternative to eBay. No fee involved. Turns out that it's really a good LOCAL online flee market. People sell all sorts of crap there, as well as, good stuff. I have never seen any firearms or firearms related items (holsters/magazines etc) posted there but for other items, another way to go.

 

[Bruce333]

Craigslist's policy is like Ebay's, no firearms. Doesn't stop people from trying though.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

So the real question is, in some of those cases, what's the alternative?

 

[WiLLtallica]

Paypal & ebay is a scam, and a monopoly.

 

[kfranz]

Paypal & ebay is a scam, and a monopoly.

Poppycock

So the real question is, in some of those cases, what's the alternative?

Gunbroker, auctionarms and either cash, check, or Money Orders. Or, if you know that your items violate the paypal agreement, instruct the buyer to label them as something that won't draw attention. Magazines could be called, oh, I don't know, "storage devices"or "feeding mechanisms", or maybe even "books". It's not like paypal is going to check the package contents...

 

[T.J.K.]

I love Ebay and Paypal is just the nature of the beast. It's the safest form of payment for the buyer and the seller :read:

 

[Rockrivr1]

I use Paypal for all my money transactions. I am just very liberal in my description of what the funds are for. I never use the Paypal link when purchasing questionable items on Ebay. I send it separately with the above mention descriptions.

I don't think that Paypal, like Ebay are just stopping this due to a whim. They are in the business of making money. More cash going through Paypal is money in the coffers. They are just trying to protect themselves from lawsuits and such, which can really hit the bottom line.

I like Ebay and have bought all kinds of stuff from them. I do though make sure to protect myself and will pass on auctions from sellers who do not have a proven track record. So far, I've never had a problem.

 

[Manedwolf]

While I have no respect for PayPal, it's not "The Man". It's a decision by a private company as to their policies.

If you don't like it, you use another company. Free enterprise.

BTW, people do sell parts and such on eBay all the time with a little stealth.
A typical auction might be under books, "Magazine about BERETTA, 17 pages."

 

[carterbeauford]

www.paypalsucks.com

If there is nothing on there about their firearms policies, you should add it.

They gave a seller a hard time for selling me a 20 round SKS magazine. Just another case of someone trying to impose authority where it is unwelcome and taking away our rights a little at a time.

Paypal IS a monopoly since they merged with Ebay.

 

[karlsgunbunker]

Use gearpay: https://www.gearpay.com/index.php
or Paystone: http://www.paystone.com/

Both firearms friendly

 

[jnojr]

Craigslist is worse than eBay.

There are groups of people who do nothing but "police" CL listings. Check out:

http://forums.sandiego.craigslist.org/?forumID=5194

When one of these nuts sees a gun post, they immediately get their buddies to help them "flag" the post off.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Thanks for the link for Gearpay, I was wondering if there were any Paypal-like payment systems that aren't anti-gun. Now hopefully it will become as popular and widespread as Paypal so it's as convenient.
As for Craigslist, I read in a magazine or something that they were bought by eBay? Would explain their policies.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

The only other things we have are Gunbroker or the like. But for things other than guns, Ebay is about all there is. Everyone else is either driven out of business by Ebay or bought by them and put under the same restrictions.

Which is fine. Except when we can't use the payment method that is the only method that most people accept online because of other hobbies we're involved in.

 

[tulsamal]

Somebody suggested gearpay.com to me before. So I trotted off to their website and checked out their fees. And then I didn't sign up. I just went and looked again and didn't sign up. Am I reading it right?

Receive Money - ACH transfers / e-checks 3.0%

You can SEND money for free but the receiver gets hit with 3% no matter the source. PayPal will hit you with a 3% fee if you want to have a business account so that you can accept credit cards. So I opened one business account (which I almost never use) and one free personal account (which is used most of the time). It does have restrictions that I bump my head on every now and then but it REALLY steams me when some company wants to get 3% of my money for just letting the numbers stream through their computers. I sell a $500 gun and gearpay gets to skim off $15? If a credit card is involved, fine, I understand. But there needs to be some type of small-scale free account before I'm going to be signing up for the service.

If my choice is between giving somebody 3% or spending $1 on a postal money order plus a stamp, I'm going to the Post Office!

Gregg

 

[TexasRifleman]

Really odd. Just in the last 2 weeks I've bought holsters, a Streamlight weapon light, and a laser sight for a Kel Tec P3AT, all on eBay from GOLD eBay merchants and all paid with PayPal.

So apparantly their policy doesn't apply to large volume (high profit for PayPal) sellers.

What a crock.