pellet-gun-wielding robber flunks victim selection

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Car Knocker said:
I wonder if those here who have questioned the victim's marksmanship have done better themselves in an armed robbery? How many hits for shots expended did you get?

I agree. Sitting here, safely, in front of my computer, communicating on a forum, is a lot different than being sure that I'm about to be shot to death or crippled by a violent criminal. I've only been in a situation like that, once, more than 20 years ago. If I had had a gun, then, I hope I would have been able to shoot as well as the victim in this article. "Fear can do strange things to a man."
 
I’m not buying that story. Shot multiple times at point-blank range with a .45 and he lived? If the dum-dums didn’t kill him, surely the tumbling down the sidewalk after being blown off his feet would have.

From the first report yesterday in the paper it mentioned the suppect was shot in the hand and leg.

here's the first article

Would-be robber wounded in Bridgeton
By Harry Levins
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
03/13/2007

A robber packing a pellet gun lost out early today to a motel guest packing a real firearm.

Bridgeton police say that after surrendering his cash, jewelry and car keys to two robbers in the parking lot of the motel, the guest drew his own firearm and got the drop on the robbers, wounding one of them in the hand and leg.

It all happened about 3 a.m. at the Motel 6 at 3655 Pennridge Drive, said Bridgeton police Lt. James Woodland.

"The man being robbed had a concealed-carry permit," Woodland said.


After the shooting, the would-be robbers fled. "We caught the wounded one about a quarter-mile down the road, outside a bar that was closed," Woodland said.

Woodland said the suspect had been taken to a hospital for treatment of his wounds. The second robber remains at large, he said.
 
For those of you questioning our hero's marksmanship, consider:

1. It was 3 in the morning.

2. Stress, anyone?

3. What do you think the dog did when the cannon went off?

4. Put yourself in his situation.

As far as our local newspaper, the St. Louis Post Disgrace, actually having a fair and balanced story on this incident, I am still in shock...
 
Was anybody else worried about the fact he handed over his keys,wallet ect first?

"The one guy started to pat me down, and I didn't want him to find my gun, so I was handing them over everything I could," the victim said. "I was just waiting for the right opportunity to get my gun."

The robbers then started to depart with the man's wallet, necklace, ring and cash.

"The guy with the gun was walking away with the gun at his side, but then he turned around and aimed it at my face," the victim said. "I definitely thought he was going to shoot me, so I pulled my gun out and started firing."

Reading is fundamental. :)
 
Good job living through that hell...

I say any hits made in a full on adreneline dump situation are good hits... The crook should have to replace the ammo he made the good guy shoot him with:mad: !!

Derek... I also saw that episode of Dallas SWAT on their little marathon, I about fell over when I heard about the,"armor piercing Black Talons", too. I also loved how their ,"intel", said there were no women, children, or elderly at the residence, and a strong likely hood of weapons. Women(some elderly) and children were all they found after flash banging and ripping out the windows:fire: !! In their minds, I guess it is justified by the ,"We don't pick'em, we just kick'em", attitued thy seem to portray,great police work:banghead:
 
offthepaper said:
If he did'nt learn from his past actions (remember, he's only been prosecuted when he was actually caught, likely got away with similar actions) what on earth makes you think this is the "magic bullet" to make him mend his ways?
Because a bullet hurts worse than a slap on the wrist. The weak hand of the justice system obviously isn't doing any good. A bullet might change his mind, though.

Heck, a .45 to the hand might, depending on exactly where, render the hand useless for good, and surely for a short time. If nothing else it might work to get him to stick to crimes where you're less likely to contact the victim. Empty stores don't normally shoot back.
 
Car Knocker
I agree also. Did'nt mean for anyone to interpret my post as faulting the guy for two hits from seven shots. Very few people can lay down target quality fire when placed in such a situation, he did OK.
I'm just rootin' for the next "victim". ;)
 
More range time?

Ok, YOU try shooting a 45 one-handed at a moving target while rushing on adrenaline and holding a frightened dog in the other hand. If you can hit COM 5 of 7 I'll buy you a steak dinner.

I shoot a lot, but I have no idea how I'll do when the SHTF. I hope I'll do well, but until the day comes, NONE of us know how we'll handle that shot.
 
IMO anyone that get's shots off under the gun themselves,and actually hits anyone their supposed to and lives, did fine. On second thought, anyone that is able to even draw and fire shots off at all did fine by me.
 
Also keep in mind we have no idea what the distance was on his shots. Was it 5 yds, 10 yds, 30, yds, or more? We don't know. What we do know is that he hit his target under tremendous stress, adrenaline, and as the other poster noted while trying to hold on to a pit bull. My daughter has a 95lb pit bull and I can tell you, when we go for a walk, he's leading.
 
To add to the possibilities, did he split his fire between the two BG's, if one is armed, good chance the second is too and then was he trying to get to cover as he engaged? last place I want to be is standing center of the street, flat footed trading fire with another guy who appears to have a 45.

Last time I wandered the streets at 0300 hrs, there wasn't a whole lot of light to see by and unless our Darwin Candidate in training was wearing white, black gun on black background with black sights isn't the easiest thing to see and with a dog who may have just decided that adding his 2 bits to the situation was a good thing (in his mind anyway :D), by either running away or trying to get at the BG is going to make pinpoint accuracy suspect, then you have the BG, who's first thought was and is most likely unprintable when he realised that his victim, has a REAL gun, is running away like a spotted A$$ ape.

I think he did a good job, first shot probably hit the gun or gun hand ( many people fixate on the weapon and bullets tend to follow the eyes) and the rest were sent for good measure or he was shooting till the threat was down or gone.
 
When I read this my gut reaction is that we should all print this off and save a copy for reading again. This guy should be commended for handling this about as perfectly as could be expected. I only hope that I am able to get 2 hits out of 7 if I am mugged like this.

This case is text book in all ways. The robbers handled themselves just like thugs do, the victim waited to use deadly force until he thought he life was truly being threatened, and the reporter wrote a fair after action report of the situation.
 
Wow, as if I needed any reminder why I invited Mr. 1911 along for my stay at a Motel 6 on the bad side of Indianapolis last weekend.

I'm not questioning the man's marksmanship, way too many variables, this wasn't an IDPA match where any of us were in the audience.
 
Reading the last few posts, I'm surprised at all the little factors I hadn't taken into account. Darkness, distance, possibly moving to cover, the two targets probably on the move, a dog yanking on the leash in the weak hand.
 
:sniff:

Seven shots at fairly close range, and all he hit were the legs and hand? Maybe it was poor lighting, but while I congratulate the victim for prevailing, I think he needs some quality range time.
 
I saw a video once where a cop had pulled someone over for a moving violation. At some point (the details are fuzzy) the motorist began shooting at the cop. The cop was
running
ducking
scrambling
backpedaling
and shooting, simultaneously.

That’s how I think it would go down if I were ever in a shooting, instincts (run, duck) and training (shoot) will occur concurrently in one big jumbled mess that will seem like several minutes but will be only a few seconds.
 
"sniff:

Seven shots at fairly close range, and all he hit were the legs and hand? Maybe it was poor lighting, but while I congratulate the victim for prevailing, I think he needs some quality range time."

How close is close? Unless someone can dig up the police report, we will never know.

Have you ever tried to manage a large dog and shoot at the same time, you get excited and so does the dog, they may want to charge the threat or run away from what could be a very painful experience for them, as in a gun being fired only a matter of feet above their ears, my dog hears me picking up speed coming out of the speed zone 3 miles away and is sitting at the window looking down the road watching for me, also lets the wife know when I am almost home, now let's unleash a hundred plus decibles, several times over the same set of ears, while we are holding onto the leash. I train with my dog, but how many people don't and this may be the first experience for him.

90 pounds of dog decides to go left when you are facing right, will turn you and jar your aim, simple as that.

Would you stand pat and wait for the BG to shoot at you? or would you draw while on the move and seek cover and start firing to throw of his firing solution, a moving target is harder to hit, than a standing one, especially, when he is already aiming at you and you are reacting, trying to beat his reaction time.

Never mind the problems with low light and potentially moving targets.

He is even bang on for hits per encounter according to the stats.

He did as good as any of us could hope to do, in this situation.
 
The victim said he had the concealed-carry permit for two years but had never used the weapon. Missouri has no tracking system for cases in which people with concealed-carry permits use their weapons.

saying he needs more range time is the understatement of the century.
 
saying he needs more range time is the understatement of the century.
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I dunno, if that actually means he never fired the handgun at all. I think he had an absolutley superior performance that few of us "range hovers" could match.
He did fine either way.
 
Ummm... what about the pitbull our CCW holder had on a leash?

Unfortunately dog's are rarely good protection against a calm gun wielding perp. They do not see the perp as endangering the owner as they would if they held a club type weapon such as a bat in an aggressive manor. So the dog being unaggressive while he was held at gunpoint is quite likely. Now patting him down on the other hand... However if calm and collected and not spewing loud aggressiont the dog may not have picked up on the fact that anythign was wrong, or may have been socialized to be friendly and good with people in public. Someone pointing a gun at you will be little different than someone pointing a camera at you, and most dogs won't understand the difference or percieved threat.

Sadly having an aggressive dog is a serious liability, especialy in some states. Your dog biting someone or being "paranoid" enough to be protective when you need it means you have something that may get you sued, criminaly charged, and the dog put down if it gets loose or you want to take it in public. However if it is sweet non aggressive and loving it will probably not attack anyone even if your in danger unless they witness someone beating on you, an even then many might be tentative on how best to proceed, and if they do act do little more than latch onto an arm or leg.

If however your dog is trained to be aggressive/defensive or is of a breed given a bad reputation for being aggressive you can be charged with murder/assault with a deadly weapon if your dog kills or bites someone in some states. Even on your own property in some places when lethal force is not permitted it is criminal for your dog to hurt someone in some states.

So a dog for protection is seriously over rated. They are either not aggressive enough to reliably deter or attack in non violent situations such as this or robberies, home invasions etc where they only understand violence and not the threat of violence. Or they are a liability you cannot take places with you, and a risk to your financial future, and in some states potential criminal charges, even when not intentional negligent, such as the dog breaking out of the house while your at work and doing someone harm, or your kid/wife accidentaly letting it get away. Virtualy everywhere obvious negligence makes you liable, and many places simply being the owner even if not present makes you financialy and sometimes criminaly liable. Owners have served prison time for having dangerous dogs who got out of hand and hurt someone while thier wife or someone else was walking them and the owner unaware and not even present.

Also many people with massive animals for protection are usualy some of the most choice victims for a criminal as unlike in this particular case they are more often than not depending on an animal for safety and so are less prepared personaly to defend themselves or put up a fight than someone knowing they are depending on themselves for defense. Sorta along the lines of some that carry firearms can become soley comforted or dependent on a firearm to prevail and when that is taken or unavailable are less capable than they would have otherwise become. Then again those with firearms and especialy those having gone through the trouble to carry are more likely to have a defense oriented mindset and so it is not quite as accurate of a comparison as those that simply purchase or have a big dog to feel safe.

Now as far as range time, yes it would be ideal if someone could put all thier shots on target with a gun pointed at them or shots being fired at them. However consider that a handgun round is rarely a one or even two shot stopper immediately. I have seen several case where people shot, even in the heart return fire . So in a gun fight being a hard to hit target and going for cover is as important as hitting the target, as simply having well placed shots will not mean you don't take shots too, even if your hit first. This is not an old western or modern action flick where the first to shoot and hit wins, in real life bullets from handguns are often exchanged, sometimes fataly to both after the fact. If you and someone else both started firing at eachother from close range it is quite likely both would take hits if both had decent marksmanship skills. It is not the range or hunting where bullets are not incoming, or where your bullet with stop them immediately like a powerful rifle hit and stop additonal rounds form coming your way. So if scrambling for safety with a dog pulling him in a direction throwing off his aim he did pretty good. Especialy if his story that the gun was pointed at his head is believed. Standing still and drawing and shooting at someone pointing a gun at your head would not be the brightest thing to do, becoming a moving target while firing and going for cover would be smarter. Maybe not for the innocent bystanders or houses/cars errant rounds could hit, but for the individual that approach is more likely to save his life than drawing shooting and taking a shot in the head or body even if he hits the guy with a round first or at about the same time. These are pistol bullets, not magical life enders that merely must connect with the target to instantly save you from additional harm, especialy if thier weapon is already aimed at you.
 
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he took his pit bull on an errand for food. Just outside the motel, he encountered two men who asked questions about the dog before one of them pulled out what looked like a gun and announced a holdup.

Hmmm.... Methinks this started off as bad victim selection even before the .45 was pulled & fired. If I'm a BG looking for a potential victim, I'm probably not going to pick a guy with a pit bull. I'm so glad that more and more people are getting CCWs so that BGs will have to think twice before they choose to assault someone.
 
The outcome of the encounter would probably have been the same if the defender had missed with all rounds fired. This is one of the reasons caliber does not make the top five among factors that affect the outcome of an encounter in which a handgun is used for self-defense.
 
Sent a good email commending the writer on a good article. I'd say that the CCW holder did everything right. Money and jewlery are not worth shooting over. I hope that he meant that he never had to draw and fire in a self defense situation, otherwise... :uhoh:
 
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