Penetration: 9mm vs .45ACP

[Alan Fud]

Not really sure where the best place is for this thread as it really isn't about hunting but more of a self-defense type question (if this is the wrong forum, I respectfully ask the staff to move it elsewhere).

I have heard it said that a 9mm +P FMJ (the ones NATO uses) will penetrate a Grizzly's skull but a .45ACP will not. Is this true?

I ask because recently I've been carrying a .45 more often than a 9mm but I carry not only for two-legged purposes but also against four-legged creatures such as alligators. Additionally, within the next few months I'll be moving to the hills of PA where 'gators won't be an issue but black bear and wolves might be.

Under those circumstances, should I venture out with a .45ACP or a 9mm? Or, put another way, is it true that a 9mm +P FMJ (the ones NATO uses) will penetrate a Grizzly's skull but a .45ACP will not?

 

[TechBrute]

Gee... If only someone would start up the 9mm vs .45ACP debate again. It's been over 30 seconds...

 

[CZ-75]

I've read Cooper say that 9mm has better penetration.

I think the Germans did some testing in the '70s using cars, and I believe the 9mm did better than .44 mag and equal to .357. Anyway, the results were surprising.

I'm still not sure about a Grizzly skull. Even if you could find one that someone would let you shoot, the skin and the muscle layers would probably have an effect than that of bare bone.

 

[Matt G]

Member Kieth Rogan has collected a lot of information on this, including data from tests conducted by the R.C.M.P. on grizzleys. The Cannucks found that a 158g LRN .38 Spl could reliably penetrate a grizzley's skull, provided the shot placement was good. Most people put the shot far too high on a bear's head, and may get good penetration, but in fact are only hitting the large sinus cavity above the brain. A bear's brain lies directly behind the nose, which is counter-intuitive to most of us.

In his video, Second Chance body armor president Richard Davis (a proponent of shooting sports and the RKBA movement who actually survived a shootout himself while delivering a pizza in Detroit back in the late '60s) conducts penetration tests in multiple layers of 3/4" plywood that's been stood up in frames about 6" apart. The results were surprising to me: the deepest penetrator among .44 mag, .45 ACP, .22 LR, .357 Mag, .41 Mag and some others was the FMJ 124 9mm! If I recall, it made 9 sheets, but I may be off by a couple. Now, admittedly, the .41, .357, and .44 mags were all SP or HP bullet loads, but I really thought they'd penetrate more than ANY 9mm. The .45 ACP lagged quite a bit behind.

Which of course means, if you're ever attacked by someone wearing 8+ sheets of 3/4" CDX plywood, pull out the 9mm, for heaven's sake!

(I wrote Mr. Davis asking about documentation of his test results of .223 penetration vs. pistol bullet penetration in drywall, and he asked "Are you planning to have a shoot-out at Home Depot?" L.O.L.)

 

[Alan Fud]

What I'm getting from this is that .45ACP is for summer carry and the 9mm is for winter carry where a person might be wearing a few layers of clothing. Is that an accurate conclusion?

 

[CZ-75]

It probably isn't that clear cut. Perhaps it would be better phrased as FMJ in Winter and HPs in Summer.

I'm thinking ball would still overpenetrate a human torso in winter, with heavy clothing, in practically any caliber.

 

[Matt G]

I don't get that from the data at all. Plywood and bear skulls are not the same as jackets and coats and human torsos. Ideally your ammo/gun combo should penetrate 14"-18" of calibrated ballistic gelatin. Also, who carries FMJ in their 9mm for defensive use, anyway? Apples to apples. HP to HP. Carry gun to carry gun.

 

[Frohickey]

Penetration is related to energy, composition, and cross sectional area.

Why do you think sewing needles are so good at penetration?

For the ultimate in bear skull penetration, I would suggest a 2 lb chunk of lead, with a slug of plutonium inside of it. Dunno how effective it would be for bear medicine though.

A 9mm sabot made out of depleted uranium would be great for bear medicine. Only thing, your taxidermist would need to be licensed by the NRC.

 

[rebbryan]

uh, you need to be carrying something MUCH bigger than a 45 or 9mm if you're afraid of bears, i highly doubt you'll be able to put correct shot placement with onna those chargin you.

i've always heard 9mm had better penetration than 45, but i dunno for myself. i dunno where you live, but down here in the South people don't wear much more clothin durin the winter so it probably won't matter.

 

[BB93YJ]

I seem to have read a survey once a long time ago that was to see what Alaska's proffesional big game guides carry. The favorite at that time was a 12 guage with slugs for bear encounters of the close kind, then the .454 Cassull came along and they supposedly sell quite a few up there. That being said, one of the biggest bears ever killed in Alaska was shot with a .22 rimfire. By an Inuit indian girl that was out fishing, one shot, one very dead, very large grizzly.

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

Jeez, EVERYONE knows that a 9mm wouldn't penetrate through wet toilet paper ! J/K Make mine an XD-9

 

[Frohickey]

That being said, one of the biggest bears ever killed in Alaska was shot with a .22 rimfire. By an Inuit indian girl that was out fishing, one shot, one very dead, very large grizzly.

I bet that Inuit indian girl knew grizzly bear anatomy very well, and not just a frontal view, but the 3-D view.

 

[TechBrute]

Everyone knows that 9mm won't penetrate the fur on the bear. There was a study done by the FBIATFNSA in the 80's that showed how a 9mm shot at point blank range into a bearskin rug simply bounced off and fell to the floor.

Conversely, the same study showed that a .45ACP fired from 250 yards would penetrate 6 bears and blow the 7th bear 45 feet backwards. As the round went through the first 6 bears it sucked out their internals, turning them inside-out. It was noted, though, that the .45ACP round was someone's super secret self defense handload that was quickly classified after that, and the load data was later stored with the plans for the 100MPG carburetor and the blueprints for the alien ship that crashlanded at Area 51 (which doesn't exist... dernit, where's my tin foil hat when I need it.)

I prefer my 1911 converted to .50BMG for defense against lions, tigers, and bears, oh my. Anything bigger than a .45ACP will incinerate anything it hits, including small buildings. I can shoot down U2 spyplanes and Russian communication satellites with it. I read it on the internet, it must be true.

 

[braindead0]

Heh, dump the 9mm and the .45 and get a .357. I recently loaded up some 180gr FMJ's running about 1350fps from a 4" barrel. I guarantee that'll out penetrate 9mm and .45acp with no problem.

Or get a 10mm for roughly the same affect....

YMMV.

 

[Steve Smith]

Has anyone read the Limburger tests? They stink.


Limburger shot bears with different calibers and timed them to see how long it would take for them to each some cheese.

Fud ate the cheese in .02 seconds. Strangely enough, he is not a bear, nor was he shot.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I thought we "learned" a few weeks ago that the .45 wouldn't penetrate a winter coat at close range, but a 9mm would not only penetrate the coat, it would also penetrate the bad guy, the wall behind him, the next house, the fire station and 2 fire trucks, the nuke plant across town, and several dozen bums in line for government cheese...

 

[RandyB]

A 9mm will kill a griz. A documented case came out of Alaska this year when a fisherman puts a lights out shot into a griz at close range (why a 9mm in griz country though?) The question shouldn't be if a 9/45 penetrates deeper, but does either penetrate enough. Also if you are going to PA then black bears are the only concern. A good dose from a 9mm/.357/.45/ 10mm etc. at close range if shot accurately into the brain will stop the critter. I'd stay away from JHP and use FMJ (prefer a semi-wad. vs RN design personally) or cast solid. Practice shooting at a pie plate, bear pic, etc. at close range. Now if your going hunting then.......

 

[Feanaro]

If at all possible, I'd prefer something a little... bigger than 9mm or 45ACP against a bear. Like a ten gauge!

In this case though, FMJ would be preferable I think. Hollow points might fragment, which is good if it's in the brain. But not if it doesn't make it. I would think the 9mm would penetrate more but the .45ACP might do the trick as well. I've never been bear hunting.

 

[blades67]

Any thread started by Fudd is garanteed to be cheesy.

 

[Preacherman]

I think the biggest problem lies not just in which one will penetrate further (in ball, both calibers should penetrate just fine), but rather the angle of the shot and the place hit. An angular shot with ball ammo. can very often result in deflection. I know of one case in South Africa where a police officer took a hit to the temple with .45 hardball that glanced off, traveled round the scalp - leaving a line in the skull - and exited, without ever penetrating the bone and damaging the brain... he was unconscious for an hour or two, but recovered fully. If you get a straight-on shot, either round should penetrate: but in a charging bear situation, how is a straight-on shot guaranteed against a moving head, with your adrenalin doing its thing?

The second area is the place that you hit. On any skull, animal or human, there are stronger and weaker areas. The frontal bone on a human skull is pretty strong, and there are more than a few reports of weak rounds (e.g. .25 ACP and .32 ACP) failing to penetrate it even with a straight-on hit. The back of the human skull, behind the ears, is less tough, and this is why the Israeli Mossad hitmen can use .22 Short against this area with a high rate of success. On a bear skull, you'd have to try to hit areas that are not too tough for handgun ammo.

I agree with shooting for the nostrils: this is the same lesson we learned in Africa, with lion - shoot for the nostrils, and the bullet has a good chance of penetrating to the brain. Shoot above the nostrils, and you're hitting thick, steeply-angled bone, and there's a good chance the bullet will deflect, or hit something non-vital.

My own solution is to go to the .44 Magnum, full loaded with Garrett Hammerheads. This stuff kicks like a proverbial mule, but it's taken more than its fair share of the stuff with teeth, and is the minimum I'm likely to feel comfortable with if something wants to make a meal of me. Even better would be a .45-70 Guide Gun with the big Hammerheads. See http://www.garrettcartridges.com/default.asp for details - read the testimonials and after-action reports, and you'll see why I'm so impressed with it. A sample from the site:

"You've made a believer out of me. Last September I was hunting Alaskan grizzly with some natives when one of them wounded a male that took off in the brush. Four of us went in after him, the other 3 had rifles and due to the circumstances of the moment, I was armed with only a S&W 2.5" 44 Magnum loaded with your rounds. I was the fourth guy back, and you guessed it, he circled back around us and did a full charge from the rear at about 15-feet. I turned and shot, hitting him in the upper shoulder, blowing out his lungs and lodging just under the hide on the far side. It knocked him down, giving me enough time to empty my remaining rounds to keep him down. I know these loads were a real life saver!"
- Jeff Newville (Personal Letter)

I've only used Hammerheads on hogs so far, but none of them had any complaints...

 

[Dobe]

"I thought we "learned" a few weeks ago that the .45 wouldn't penetrate a winter coat at close range, but a 9mm would not only penetrate the coat, it would also penetrate the bad guy, the wall behind him, the next house, the fire station and 2 fire trucks, the nuke plant across town, and several dozen bums in line for government cheese..."

Jeeez, I thought it was a .45 couldn't shoot through winter air, while the 9mm would circle the globe three times at least.

 

[QKRTHNU]

It probably isn't that clear cut. Perhaps it would be better phrased as FMJ in Winter and HPs in Summer.

I'm thinking ball would still overpenetrate a human torso in winter, with heavy clothing, in practically any caliber.

So ball penetrates better than FMJ? Why?

 

[mrat]

If a Grizzly was at full charge at me it probably wouldn't matter whether a 9 or a 45 would penerate more. I would be busy screaming like a little girl and soiling myself.

 

[goon]

Gee... If only someone would start up the 9mm vs .45ACP debate again. It's been over 30 seconds...

The guy is just asking a question.
No need to jump down his throat.

To answer the original question, I think that either would probably do against a bear, but a .357 or larger would definitely be better. I carry a 9mm in the woods, but that is only because I don't have anything else. The gun is only a last resort.
It is very rare that you get a black bear mad enough to try and hurt you. I have been within feet of them, and they have always either ran or just continued on their way and pretty much ignored me. The best defense is to make lots of noise so that they are gone when you get there.
Trust me when I tell you that you are not likely to get killed by a maneating black bear. Also, there have been sightings of wolves in PA, but officially, there are none. The number is very small.
If you mean Coyotes, don't worry. They are often killed with varmint rounds, and they generally avoid people anyway.
That aside, I think either would work, and I would also stick with a FMJ bullet.
The head shot is pretty much impossible. A bear can run very fast.

 

[TechBrute]

Don't forget about the housecats that are released into the wild and run in packs, too. You'll probably need a .44 or .454 for them.