People Say W231 and HP38 are the same
- Thread starter cvo
- Start date
- Status
I haven't used either in a LONG time because I can't get them where I am, but there was a time when the data was interchangeable. I'm guessing that something has changed. Either that or the test data was compiled using components that differed in some way. Either way, I'd go with the book. Although there are exceptions, with the powders you are talking about, I'd opt to err on the side of caution. Follow the book.
BTW, did you compare the data that is on the respective websites?
BTW, did you compare the data that is on the respective websites?
Hodgdon says they are the same. Good enough for me. Fortunately my last 3 Lb metal can of W-231 is still full. My 3Lb stuff may be a bit different than stuff made today, as it is old, but not much as they strive to keep cannister powders consistent. Lot to Lot variations do occur though. Mostly in weight per volume differences more than burn rate.
Hodgdon list equal charges of the two on their website. Who knows why someone picked a lower start charge with one over the other? Was it from the same book?
Hodgdon list equal charges of the two on their website. Who knows why someone picked a lower start charge with one over the other? Was it from the same book?
Most likely, but not intentionally.
Different testers can come up with different results using the same components. Even the same tester can come up with different results on different days with different lots of powder, different firearms, primers, temperature, etc., etc. There are so many variables at play that it is difficult to call load development a scientific process.
What is the copyright date of the manual you have?
HP 38 and W 231 are the same.
W 231 and Hp 38 are the same.
The Lee tables are taken from other sources and compiled into all the charts. Several members of other forums and probably here also have contacted Hodgdon and many occasions and confirmed this.
The powders I believe are made right here in Florida at St Marks Powder Comp.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_50/ai_n6180926/
http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/propulsionsolu.html#mpanch
W 231 and Hp 38 are the same.
The Lee tables are taken from other sources and compiled into all the charts. Several members of other forums and probably here also have contacted Hodgdon and many occasions and confirmed this.
The powders I believe are made right here in Florida at St Marks Powder Comp.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_50/ai_n6180926/
http://www.gd-ots.com/sitepages/propulsionsolu.html#mpanch
Jim Watson
Member
Once upon a time, single sources like Lyman showed differing loads for HP38 and W231.
Presumably they were shooting the same bullets out of the same barrel with both powders.
I think that when Hodgdon took over distribution of Winchester commercial powders, they rationalized the specs and just fill pound jars out of the same drum and apply whichever label they have an order for. But it did not used to be that way.
Presumably they were shooting the same bullets out of the same barrel with both powders.
I think that when Hodgdon took over distribution of Winchester commercial powders, they rationalized the specs and just fill pound jars out of the same drum and apply whichever label they have an order for. But it did not used to be that way.
The Same, Equal, Made by Same Company
Stated as the same by said company.
What else needs to be explained.
Don't believe everything in print/on the internet.
Lets see if we can break a record in number of posts saying the same thing.
I don't think it's an exponential logarithm though, like the earmuff thing
Just sayin'
Tilos
PS: I love sawing sawdust
Stated as the same by said company.
What else needs to be explained.
Don't believe everything in print/on the internet.
Lets see if we can break a record in number of posts saying the same thing.
I don't think it's an exponential logarithm though, like the earmuff thing
Just sayin'
Tilos
PS: I love sawing sawdust
Last edited:
Jim, the book I have was reprinted in 2008 second edition.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=484416
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=484416
Just because you can measure within a tenth of a grain, does not mean that the performance of the powder is going to be the same, across all lots, within a tenth of a grain.
Accurate Arms used to tell me that they held their powders to 5% between lots, which was half of the industry standard.
Powder makers blend powders. At some point they stop mixing and ship the stuff. Next batch comes around, they mix that and ship that. If the first batch was at the low end of the 10% and the second at the high end of the 10%, you would expect differences.
So what you are seeing is the variability of the powder making process between lots. Which is a lot less precise than your measuring scales.
Which is why if you develop a maximum load with Lot A, lets say 60 grs, then you buy a new can with is Lot B, don't be surprised if 60 grs of lot B blows primers. Just be surprised if it does not.
I have an older Reloading article where Ken Waters "just gives up on W231" for the 45 ACP, but says that HP-38 is one of the best ever on light loadings.
Now that I know he was testing the same powder in two different cans, it makes me wonder if these gunwriters can shoot straight, run objective tests, or if their data is fictional.
Accurate Arms used to tell me that they held their powders to 5% between lots, which was half of the industry standard.
Powder makers blend powders. At some point they stop mixing and ship the stuff. Next batch comes around, they mix that and ship that. If the first batch was at the low end of the 10% and the second at the high end of the 10%, you would expect differences.
So what you are seeing is the variability of the powder making process between lots. Which is a lot less precise than your measuring scales.
Which is why if you develop a maximum load with Lot A, lets say 60 grs, then you buy a new can with is Lot B, don't be surprised if 60 grs of lot B blows primers. Just be surprised if it does not.
I have an older Reloading article where Ken Waters "just gives up on W231" for the 45 ACP, but says that HP-38 is one of the best ever on light loadings.
Now that I know he was testing the same powder in two different cans, it makes me wonder if these gunwriters can shoot straight, run objective tests, or if their data is fictional.
hanno
Member
Go to the site below and check for yourself. You can compare the data for Win 231 and HP-38.
http://data.hodgdon.com/
http://data.hodgdon.com/
loadedround
Member
Tis so!
oneounceload
member
Better to trust the data from the powder maker than the reloading equipment maker. Powder companies are constantly tweaking data to maintain certain characteristics
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS Fil...ical Powders/St Marks - Spherical Powders.pdf
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS Files/Smokeless/Winchester/BALL Powder Propellant.pdf
Proof Positive Current stuff is same......
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS Files/Smokeless/Winchester/BALL Powder Propellant.pdf
Proof Positive Current stuff is same......
evan price
Member
Hodgdon acquired the rights to Winchester powders some years ago. There were minor differences between HP38 and W231 years ago, but not enough to matter. Nowadays, they are the same identical powder, according to St. Marks, Hodgdon, and Winchester.
GP100man
Member
Give em a call , they encourage personal contact & will leave ya with no question left addressed !!
I did have to pry a little `bout the throat erosion thing with Lil` Gun .
That`s enuff , no intention of a HI JACKIN !!
I did have to pry a little `bout the throat erosion thing with Lil` Gun .
That`s enuff , no intention of a HI JACKIN !!
USSR
Member
Hodgdon has never made a powder in their life. All their powders are made by other powder companies, and packaged with the Hodgdon lable. Winchester makes several powders for them, including HP38.
Don
Don
evan price
Member
ussr said:
No, they don't. Winchester powders (and Hodgdon powders) are not made by them. In this case, HP38/W231 are made by St. Marks Powders, owned by General Dynamics, iirc.
Joemyxplyx
Member
Is ZIP the same as W231?
Just to add to the confusion, Ramshot ZIP seems to be the same as W231/HP38. See this discussion paying attention to Walkalong's pictures in comment #20.
Just to add to the confusion, Ramshot ZIP seems to be the same as W231/HP38. See this discussion paying attention to Walkalong's pictures in comment #20.
Last edited:
USSR
Member
That's true, but St. Marks Powder in FL makes all the Winchester powders and I believe was formerly owned by Olin.
Don
fourdollarbill
Member
I am now are have no W38 nor H231 mess no pertain except pin number over said HPw231 PH83 deletion of WinchesterGdon to new standards. Oh No, I'm spinning out!!!
Yes I'm confused also. But I can say that my data books claim differences of charge weight also. My only assumption is... They were using very accurate pressure and speed reading equipment but their reloading skills were not consistent enough to spot the same powder in different packages.
Oh No, I'm spinning out!!! Yes I'm confused also. But I can say that my data books claim differences of charge weight also. My only assumption is... They were using very accurate pressure and speed reading equipment but their reloading skills were not consistent enough to spot the same powder in different packages.
bluetopper
Member
Lee compiled the load data from two differnt sources.
- Status
