People who work at gun stores

[jaytex1969]

I have to wonder? Is it the dumb customers or dumb clerks? Which one of these groups are responsible for closing down so many gun shops?

Yes.

 

[wojownik]

What was it that Sy Syms said in the mens clothing business? "The best customer is an educated customer." The onus is really on the customer to do the research, gather opinions, find an expert ... and finding an expert generally never means consulting the guy who's trying to sell you something. But people can unfortunately be lazy ... customers, shop employees, the guy typing this post ...

Lots of good points in USNChief's post below.

But since I think I was the one who mentioned "working knowledge," I'll clarify that I don't expect many salespersons to have a working knowledge of anything (hopefully at least where things are located in the store). A "casual knowledge" would be appreciated. "No knowledge" is a challenge. "Expert knowledge" is something that commands a premium - that's a level of expertise that is at the top of the pyramid, and typically not in the domain of the twenty-something fellow behind a counter.

So this thread boils down to expectations and behavior. Should a gun store employee with "casual knowledge" go play expert and get a chip on their shoulder when the seemingly left field question comes in. No, but it happens. Should a customer assume that any employee in a shop has expert knowledge in every domain, and then get snippy when the employee does not? No, but it happens.

And you know what they say about people who "ASSUME."

Anybody ever actually sit down and try to figure out exactly how many different kinds if ammunition there are? Brands, calibers, bullet types, and specific loadings?

How about all the different kinds of firearms? How many companies, models, ranges of calibers and barrel lengths, types of magazines, different stock options?

And then there's the whole after-market stuff, too, not to mention customization options.

And then there's the vast field of ballistics...which, by the way, involves quite a bit more than just how fast a given bullet travels or how deeply it will penetrate ballistics gel.

I dare say there are darn few of us that are so knowledgable as to be able to actually declare themselves bona fide experts in all these areas, much less even a single one.

A "gun shop" is just that...a store whose main point of business is to sell guns and related products. It's not a gunsmith shop, though they may have a gunsmith or two working there. And even the gunsmiths will have their own field of expertise.

Yeah, it's well and good to say that you expect a gun salesman to have a "working knowledge" of what they sell...but what actually constitutes this "working knowledge"? That is subjective.

A car salesman who can drive a car has a "working knowledge" of cars...but that doesn't mean he's a certified mechanic, that he knows the HP and torque specs on all the engine options, that he knows how to change the oil, or that he's a weekend race car driver at the local track.


Yeah, there are some pretty dumb people behind the counter, some of which have that dreaded know-it-all attitude. There are some pretty dumb people in front of the counter, too, with that same attitude.


How many of us, when considering a major purchase, do a bit if research BEFORE actually making that major purchase? Seems to me that this is the way smart people go about business.

Ever buy a house just off the sales pitch of the realtor? Or do you have inspectors look things over, see what the local housing market is like, check out your own finance options, visit the neighborhood, walk through the house, do your own inspections? You expect the realtor agent to be an expert in foundations, roofing, plaster and lath, drywall, electrical wiring, etc?

When you buy a car from a used car salesman, do you expect him to know whether the car your looking at has a two bolt or four bolt main? Gear ratios? What super-whizbang, aftermarket, monster HP booster is going to suit your track speed needs?

At a car dealership, do you talk to the sales department or the service department when you need repairs?


And even if you do expect all these things...everybody had to start their knowledge somewhere...even the clerk behind the counter.


The clerk in a gun store is there to sell guns. His/her knowledge may vary on the subject, but that's it. Granted, basic things like inventory and locations of their stocked product are part of that. But selling the product is their purpose. There is no guarantee that the salesman is going to be an "expert" on all the details you may be looking for. Seek that information out through whatever other channels you need.

 

[buck460XVR]

So this thread boils down to expectations and behavior. Should a gun store employee with "casual knowledge" go play expert and get a chip on their shoulder when the seemingly left field question comes in. No, but it happens. Should a customer assume that any employee in a shop has expert knowledge in every domain, and then get snippy when the employee does not? No, but it happens.

IMHO, these types of threads do not boil down to expectations and behavior, but an attempt to display some form of superiority by the poster over others. I often wonder if these types of stories are really true or if they are fictional, whether or not we are told all the facts/statements exactly as they happened, or if the story is true, if the statements/facts have been embellished. The condescending of the object of ridicule in these threads generally tells me the story, i.e., "Look at me, I'm smarter than the average minimum wage sales person!"

In every one of these types of threads, I wish I could hear the other side of the story.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

IMHO, these types of threads do not boil down to expectations and behavior, but an attempt to display some form of superiority by the poster over others.

Meh...I wouldn't necessarily go that far.

Many times I see it as an expression of exasperation over something considered to be basic knowledge or behavior.

Like my wife's complaint that the person behind the speaker at a fast food drive thru didn't know what a "dozen piece chicken meal" was. ("I'm sorry, we don't have a dozen piece chicken meal. We have a 4, 6, 8, or 12 piece meal.")

My wife certainly wasn't lording her superiority over the anonymous speaker person...she was just irritated, and perhaps a bit frustrated, that this salesperson didn't understand that "dozen" means "12", something that should be common knowledge.

 

[buck460XVR]

Meh...I wouldn't necessarily go that far.

Many times I see it as an expression of exasperation over something considered to be basic knowledge or behavior.

Like my wife's complaint that the person behind the speaker at a fast food drive thru didn't know what a "dozen piece chicken meal" was. ("I'm sorry, we don't have a dozen piece chicken meal. We have a 4, 6, 8, or 12 piece meal.")

Soooo, did your wife then go to a Gourmet food forum and whine abut it?

There's frustration and there's condescension....big difference.

Also a big difference between what a dozen is and what wadcutters are. I agree, everyone old enough to give change should know what a dozen is. This is not the case with wadcutters.

One of the biggest topics of threads on gun forums beside "which gun for bear" are these "dumb guy at the gun counter" threads. What I don't understand is why they are not closed/locked as many have nuttin' to do with guns other than it was at gun store or the gun department of WalMart. The thread does not inform folks about guns or anything gun related, only whining because the clerk is not a expert on guns and because of this, the clerk is belittled. As a general contractor, I go to small town Lumber Yards and major distributors like Lowe's and Home Depot. I do not expect those young college kids working there part time to pay for their tuition, to know as much as I do. I only expect them to be courteous and where to direct me if they do not know the answer to a question I may have. I don't feel the need to go home and get on the computer to negatively rant about their ineptness because they didn't know what a Corbel is, and don't understand the need of others to do so.

 

[blarby]

[QUOTE="buck460XVR, post: 10394791, member: 42855"

There's frustration and there's condescension....big difference.

[/QUOTE]

And thats basically where this thread is going now- far, far from anything valuable about firearms or ammo

 

[buck460XVR]

And thats basically where this thread is going now- far, far from anything valuable about firearms or ammo

Like there ever was anything valuable about firearms and ammo in the first place. Kinda my point.

 

[Ledhead686]

One of the biggest topics of threads on gun forums beside "which gun for bear" are these "dumb guy at the gun counter" threads. What I don't understand is why they are not closed/locked as many have nuttin' to do with guns other than it was at gun store or the gun department of WalMart. The thread does not inform folks about guns or anything gun related, only whining because the clerk is not a expert on guns and because of this, the clerk is belittled. As a general contractor, I go to small town Lumber Yards and major distributors like Lowe's and Home Depot. I do not expect those young college kids working there part time to pay for their tuition, to know as much as I do. I only expect them to be courteous and where to direct me if they do not know the answer to a question I may have. I don't feel the need to go home and get on the computer to negatively rant about their ineptness because they didn't know what a Corbel is, and don't understand the need of others to do so.

I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning here; maybe you can straighten me out...

How do you figure that threads such as "which gun for bear" have nothing of substance to offer viewers, and that such should be closed/locked?... that they're not gun-related?...or that people are whiners because the gun store employee with which they deal is not all that knowledgeable of the products which he sells?

There's a difference between some goofy college kid working at Lowe's (in order to supply the beer at his fraternity's weekly kegger no doubt) pointing a contractor or homeowner to the aisle that has PVC fittings or patio furniture; that's one thing. But someone working in a business specializing in a certain product should be well-informed and updated as to changes in the industry; someone who takes a now-antiquated thing called "pride" seriously in his work. We're not talking some pimply-faced, nose-picking "Uhh...ya want fries wit' dat?" teenager at McDonald's here; we're talking specialists, or those one has every right to expect to be when they walk into a gun shop. Would you want an Ivy League sophomore working on your brakes just before you embarked on a cross-country trip with wifey-poo and the kids? Hell no. Same thing applies when some ill-informed nitwit of a clerk at a gun shop advises you on the best means of self-defense for your family...

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Soooo, did your wife then go to a Gourmet food forum and whine abut it?

There's frustration and there's condescension....big difference.

Also a big difference between what a dozen is and what wadcutters are. I agree, everyone old enough to give change should know what a dozen is. This is not the case with wadcutters.

No, she doesn't; but then a gourmet food forum (at least the ones I've been through) is different beasts than forums like this.

And of course there's a difference between frustration and condenscention. I'm just saying that I don't necessarily see posts like these as condescention.

Part of the problem with text communications like on forums, no matter how interactive they are, is an inherently poor/incomplete exchange of information. As humans, we're designed by nature to multitask communications through several layers simultaneously...using not only all of our senses, but all of our built in filters and all of our past experiences. Here, we're limited to the text that appears on the screen.

We get no voice inflection, no visual cues, nothing else. So we tend to fill in extra details based on our experiences and established communications filters.


As for "wadcutters"...I believe someone else already pointed out that "wadcutters" is not nearly so much a part of the lexicon today as it used to be. Especially in a market long dominated by semi-automatics and other more modern firearms and associated ammunition.

That a gun store clerk, especially a younger or less experienced clerk, might not know what a wadcutter is in such a market would not surprise me.


Some people think that it's the role of a salesperson in a gun store to educate people, therefore they should be knowledgable on all kinds of gun things.

While I can agree with this in part (because the more knowledgable a person is, the better salesman he'll be), this is also a two-way street. We have opportunities to educate people, too. The best customer relationships, in fact, are the ones in which the business and the customer interact more closely together.


Also, this thread is under "General Gun Discussions" under "Social Situations". That's a fairly open topic, and not so much of a "gourmet" topic as, say, "Legal", "Activism", or "Strategies, Tactics and Training".

 

[Zoogster]

Times change. Revolvers were fed wadcutters and most firearms sold today are not revolvers.

Your guy at a gun counter chain store is hired at the minimum price they can get someone to reliably and responsibly keep track of the guns and insure customers fill out paper work correctly.
A lot of businesses in retail value general prior retail experience or low wages over experience specific to what is going to be sold.
It costs more to get the middle aged man that had a career working with firearms, but would now work a job at a gun counter.
In those stores that do hire him you typically pay more for your guns, because they are not a giant chain that can get away with 5% profit per sale, because they have not only the store front rent and maintenance to pay for through their sales, but employees they actually pay a living wage.
These stores around here typically have all of their employees wearing handguns on their hips, and their guns typically cost 10% more than the cold heartless chain store that also sells guns nearby. The chain stores don't let their employees wear handguns on their hips, and treat them like a Walmart employee.



I have plenty of respect for someone that makes it clear they don't know what I am talking about. It sure beats people that pretend to know what you are talking about but then provide minimal help because they really don't. By being clear from the start they let you know you can either educate them about your question if you feel it is worth the effort or not get further assistance.
The OP chose to not get further assistance.


The retail storefront business is getting worse in general. Competing with internet sellers, including giant ones that also benefit from sheer volume and networks of inexpensive transport and storage, that don't have to pay the costs of owning a real storefront, and operate in states with low costs of living, is hard.
You can't match those prices because you have more costs. If you don't come close or match them people see the online purchase as a better deal.
In trying to match them you hire the cheapest minimum wage employee you can, and you still rely on the impulsiveness of the customer to allow you to stay in business and not just buy it cheaper online.


When a store pays someone less than they can afford to live independently on the turnover for the more capable employees is going to be high. Resulting in the employees that remain for a decent length of time and become the most knowledgeable in the position not being your best and brightest, but those with the least ambition.

This is what the customer wants. The customer has decided this is the way of American retail and low prices are more important. So the store that squeezes out the extra percent profit over the competition, and still can't beat the internet, has to hire employees willing to make less than they could actually live on as an adult.
If knowledgeable people were really more important people wouldn't be going to the chain stores that costs 10% or so less and would be going to the private gun stores, where the owner and some employees typically can talk all day about guns but have higher operating costs they have to pass on.

 

[Ed Ames]

I think there are some retail channels where it is reasonable to expect the staff to have fairly deep knowledge of the use of the products they sell. The staff at your typical musical instrument store can generally play an instrument even though that is a skill which takes years to develop. It is not out of line to expect that from a niche store.

That said, I don't think it is reasonable to expect everyone at those stores to know every type of use. Going back to the musical instrument example, if a store specializes in selling guitars the salespeople had better be able to play guitar to at least a basic standard, but they don't necessarily need to be able to play every style of music normally played on guitar.

Some of what this thread is getting into seems to fall into that style category. Wadcutters are used in a specific type of shooting that frankly isn't the most popular today. If you shoot them, and you find a store where the employees do too, that's awesome and you should support that store as a matter of self interest...but it isn't something you should expect.

And, as always, a store that sells X is not necessarily an "X store". Costco sells guitars but they aren't a guitar store. Walmart sells guns but they aren't a gun store.

 

[Robert]

We've, drifted, come back, drifted some more and are generally just wandering around now. 6 pages is more than enough for now.