Percussion Revolver Questions

[GMRevolver]

Years ago I bought a Traditions brass framed .36 "Sheriff" model "1860"(I know 1860s were really .44 and had steel frames and typicall 8" barrels). I ended up enjoying blackpowder much more than I expected to(enjoy it more than smokeless, in fact) and the predictable happened and I wore out the frame.

I'm thinking of getting into percussion revolvers again(with a steel frame this time) and I've read up on the differences between Colt models and Remingtons and Pietta and Uberti. There are a few questions I have that I haven't found answers for which would impact my decision considerably.

My Traditions(which from what I understand is a Pietta) revolver did not have safety pins between the chambers. Is this also a problem for Pietta or Uberti branded Colt revolvers or is this just an issue with historically inaccurate "Traditions" models? I've also noticed that the hammer face looks different from pictures I've seen of others. If I buy a Colt pattern(1851 or 1860), I definitely want these. I know Remington pattern revolvers have the recesses between chambers for the hammer. Also, since my faux "1860" is now a parts gun, will the barrel assembly and cylinder fit a more appropriate Pietta 1860? Would be nice to switch between .44 and .36 when I want.

Another question I have is how much of a difference in muzzle velocity does the 5" vs 8" barrels really make? I know the longer barrels provide a much nicer ramrod lever.

Otherwise I'm really torn between an 1860 or Remington NMA(never shot a Remington), 5" or 8". I know this is more of a personal preference call.

Also, who do you most recommend for ordering? I know of Dixie Gun Works and EMF. Not many choices locally as they're geared more toward inlines.

 

[Tommygunn]

Years ago Pietta put the safety pins on their 1860s, but not their 1851 Navy revolvers. It little mattered as the hammer profile was such that it didn't match the cylinder heel.
I think all Piettas have these pins now regardless of which American distributer sells them.

New Piettas, for some years now, have safety pins on both, and they are operable. Uberti, in my experience, always had them, but I could be wrong; possibly some very old ones might not have. There are people here who have old Uberti guns from decades ago and maybe they can correct me if I'm wrong.

I've used Dixie Gun Works for 25 years and I have alway been satisfied. They sell Uberti, Pietta, and with long guns, other makers as well.

I have bought some from EMF and they are as good. They have even called me up to inform me of the status of orders. One time I'd ordered a Griswold & Gunnerson which is a brass frame revolver. They called me up to say that mine was the last one they could fulfill and the gun had a small imperfection on the frame, but I said ok I'd take it anyway.

I could hardly even see what they called an "imperfection."

I think they really want to do right by customers!

 

[Ugly Old Guy]

The direct evidence, such as photographs, and contemporary reports, that "back in the day" troopers and such reloaded by changing out the cylinders of their revolver may be lacking..
However, ancillary and circumstantial evidence suggests they did.
There are belt pouches, (if you will ... if you have a better term for them, feel free to use it instead), designed specifically for carrying one or two revolver cylinders that date back to the Civil War and earlier.

The problem of doing so with an open top revolver like the Colt, is you might drop the barrel wedge, and lose it in the grass or sand/dirt, making that revolver pretty much a paper weight; when the last thing in the world you need or want is a paper weight.
.
To the OP: As long as it is uncapped, you should not have difficulties insofar as safety is concerned.
No doubt those who reloaded by changing the cylinder back in the day had them capped, as well, especially if they knew they were headed onto battle.
I doubt they worried much about long term storage, since it was likely they would be used in the short term.

Someone mentioned above (I can't scroll up tp see who) that carrying more than one revolver was common.
This is true.
The problem is, there are only so many revolvers you can put on you and/or your horse, if you happen to have a horse or other rideable animal, like a mule, and still wield your primary weapon(s).
Back in the day, the revolver (or horse pistol) was never a trooper's primary weapon, just like the 1911, for example, is/was never their primary weapon.

 

[arcticap]

Old South Firearms can have some good deals on Traditions Piettas which come with a 1 year Traditions warranty. --->>> https://www.oldsouthfirearms.com

 

[whughett]

I’m partial to Uberti, to me just seems to be a higher quality product. Like others here my dealings with EMF was excellent.

Colt or Remington Style. I have several of both, enjoy shooting both, either are as accurate as I’m capable of, I like the looks of the Colt and it’s a lot easier to clean. The Colt will run a lot longer before it has to be cleaned. Both my Remingtons, 36 or 44 have to have the cylinders dismounted and the base pin cleaned after as little as 12 shots.

Safety pins or notches. It’s a moot point with me. The guns are never loaded until on the firing line and are discharged as soon as loaded. Most who carry while hunting or just like to leave it loaded will adhere to the Single Action Safety rule. Hammer down on an empty chamber.
My favorites are neither Colt or Remington. Rather Ruger Old Army and Rogers and Spencer’s. Neither in production anymore and therefore pricey beyond worth.
If your like the average Joe on this forum you’ll wind up with a variety anyway. May as well have one of each or two.

 

[expat_alaska]

EMF is/has been the primary distributor of Pietta firearms for quite some time. When EMF's board of directors considered folding the company, Pietta bought them out some time ago (it's on the EMF website). Old South Firearms usually has a good selection of Pietta guns at good prices, but they are not always in stock. DGW also has good prices when they go on sale, which is not infrequently. DGW's Piettas are usually listed as DGW's own line and used to be stamped Dixie Gun Works also.

I have 8 Pietta 1851 Navy .36 revolvers (mostly of Confederate flavor) and only one is a brass frame (Griswold & Gunnison), and I don't shoot it for that reason. Since Pietta went to CNC machining ~2000, all of their Navy parts interchange from one gun to another, kind of like the Legos of the modern replica world. I have 4 (Leech & Rigdon, Rigdon & Ansley, Augusta Machine Works, Columbus Firearms Manufacturing Company) that I assembled using Pietta parts from Taylor's or VTI, and all started as 1851 Navies because Pietta does not market them, at least not in the US. I also have two Pietta pre-CNC revolvers: a Dance & Brothers .36 (date code BH/1996) and an 1851 Navy .36 4-screw frame cut for shoulder stock (AZ/1990). The 4-screw has a notch in the hammer face for the safety pins, but there are no pins on the rear of the cylinder. Pietta has not marketed a Navy 4-screw in over 20 years.

Here is a very good (but somewhat long - 47 minutes) video: "Pietta Factory Tour" during which Mr. A. Pietta explains why anomalies like that occurred:



I also own some Uberti and Armi San Marco revolvers, but am partial to the Piettas. Here is a comparison photo of the size differences:

ASM 1860 Army full-fluted cylinder 4-screw cut for shoulder stock .44 (BC/1993)
Uberti 1848 Whitneyville Hartford Dragoon .44 (CU/2019)
Pietta 1851 Navy Second Model Belt Dragoon .36 (CM/2014) (fantasy parts gun)



Regards,

Jim

 

[expat_alaska]

Also, since my faux "1860" is now a parts gun, will the barrel assembly and cylinder fit a more appropriate Pietta 1860? Would be nice to switch between .44 and .36 when I want.

Strictly speaking of Pietta revolvers:

You did not say what the date code of your brass frame is. If it is BN/2000 or earlier (pre-CNC), it may entail fitting your barrel/cylinder/etc. to a newer CNC frame. In addition, the 1860 frame will have the water table cut to accommodate the 1860 .44 rebated cylinder, whereas the 1851 .36 frame is not cut for a rebated cylinder (the Navy .36 cylinder is straight). While both frames are identical in length, the 1860 .44 cylinder is longer (by ~1/8") than the Navy .36 cylinder; the 1860 .44 barrel forcing cone is shorter than the 1851 .36 barrel forcing cone by the same amount. Long story short: the .36 barrel/cylinder will work on the 1860 frame, but not vice-versa. Also, the 3-piece grip assembly (backstrap, trigger guard, and wood) are interchangeable from frame to frame, but only as an assembly. Wedge and internal parts are equally interchangeable from gun to gun.

I would not relegate the damaged brass frame to the trash bin, if you have a liking for them. CW (conventional wisdom) has it that brass frames "stretch" when subjected to continual use of heavy loads, but that is not usually the case. What usually happens is that the rear of the cylinder is repeatedly slammed into the frame around the base of the arbor at the recoil shield area, moving the brass and imprinting the ratchet teeth into it. A machinist can mill the area down a few thousandths of an inch and a steel washer of appropriate size and thickness can be installed to take up that space. However, that may cost more than buying a brass frame from a source such as Ebay.

Otherwise I'm really torn between an 1860 or Remington NMA (never shot a Remington), 5" or 8". I know this is more of a personal preference call.

If you get the chance to do so, handle both a Colt and a Remmy at the same time. There is a considerable difference to the feel. I do not like the Remmy, but others do. The Colt style grip worked so well that the design was carried over to the Colt 1873 .45 years later.

Regards,

Jim

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Ive had nothing but great experience with EMF... Not at all with dixie to where i wont buy from them again. Emf goes over all their guns with a magnifying glass and even the smallest scratch ,that cant be seen with the naked eye, gets turned away or sold cheaper as a "blemished" item. I got an 1851 london model for 220 due to a needle point sized scratch. Thats 50 bux off for.something i couldnt even see. Now dixie gave me bad shipping and horrible service and bad product. I got an 1861 london sherriff in 2018...was sent a 2014 model with a huge cylinder gap of an 1/8th inch and had pre 2015 parts so modifications would be hard...i told them i wanted a new model of atleast 2016-2017 which they did have in stock and one with a smaller cylinder gap. I had to pay shipping to them as well. They refused to budge on it. When i got my replacenent i got the same one! all they did was change barrel to a 2016 model. I called them to call them out on their tricks and even explained it can cause issues with warranty . i had to pay shipping AGAIN if i wanted a replacement. I bit the bullet and got a replacement...this time same barrel that was 2016 stamped (it was a bit scratched..almost as if steel wool was ran on one side of the barrel after buffing) and given a 2016 body which i assume was the original...but the arbor is crooked and points to the right. When i called to let them know they told me the guns arent perfect anf to pay a gunsmith to put in a dovetailed adjustable sight. This gun literally has an arbor that points the barrel more than an 1/4th of an inch to the right and as the barrel is longer it points even more so to the righr. I got so tired of the run around and almost 100 bux in total shipping charges..not to mention it took a week after paying for my ordwr that they actually shipped it and only because i called to ask for the status. They said "well if you want us to ship it faster call us or pay for overnight..." I explained i selected 2-3 day shipping and ita been a week and the item hasnt even been shipped...they said "well yeah when its shipped it will be 2-3 days but it can take ud a week to process your order" that should have been a red flag. Never again will they get my money. Although old south has great service too. I definitely proudly refer people there and to emf

 

[expat_alaska]

I got an 1861 london sherriff in 2018...was sent a 2014 model with a huge cylinder gap of an 1/8th inch and had pre 2015 parts so modifications would be hard...

The only difference between a Pietta Navy from 2014 and one from 2015 is the 3-piece (backstrap, trigger guard, and wood) grip assembly. The "tail" revolvers were last produced in 2014 and the "non-tail" revolvers are from 2015 to present day. All of the other parts (CNC machined) are identical from ~2000 to present day.

When i got my replacenent i got the same one! all they did was change barrel to a 2016 model. I bit the bullet and got a replacement...this time same barrel that was 2016 stamped (it was a bit scratched..almost as if steel wool was ran on one side of the barrel after buffing) and given a 2016 body which i assume was the original...

Well, that's a new one on me! Date stamps are only found on the frames, not the barrels or cylinders: only the two proof marks on each.

I sure would like to see a photo of your date-stamped barrel.

Regards,

Jim

 

[GMRevolver]

Thanks for the replies. Quite informative and interesting.

What usually happens is that the rear of the cylinder is repeatedly slammed into the frame around the base of the arbor at the recoil shield area, moving the brass and imprinting the ratchet teeth into it. A machinist can mill the area down a few thousandths of an inch and a steel washer of appropriate size and thickness can be installed to take up that space. However, that may cost more than buying a brass frame from a source such as Ebay.

That's precisely what happened with mine. There was no stretch, just the cylinder imprint which gave it a massive endshake. I may eventually have that done if I can find someone around that can do it. It would be nice to keep it as a range beater.

Regarding the preference for the safety pins, I'm likely going to use this revolver as a trail gun and for squirrel and hare. It's nice to be able to cap all chambers but it's not a necessity. I'm also going to get a longarm front-stuffer as well. I'd prefer to get my hands on a larger caliber smoothbore for versatility but I'll scour what gun shops I can to see what the used market has.

The more I think about it, the more I feel the Remington is a better fit. I'll just have to decide between 8" and 5". Is there a significant velocity loss with those 3 inches of barrel? I see EMF's sale on Piettas with spare cylinders in both formats.

 

[expat_alaska]

The one thing I will say about the Remmy is that the cylinders are easily swapped, compared to a Colt. You can carry a spare cylinder (or two) for reloads in the field, and since you won't be in an ACW battle, time is not of the essence. The Remmy cylinder also has safety stop slots between chambers for the hammer nose rather than the fragile Colt cylinder safety pins, which are fairly easy to break off. Since the hammer face on the Remmy has no recess like the Colt hammer, the spent caps won't adhere to the hammer.

Good luck with your new purchase, sir!

Regards,

Jim

 

[Armored farmer]

to(enjoy it more than smokeless, in fact)

I know what you mean here!

I'm really torn between an 1860 or Remington NMA(never shot a Remington), 5" or 8"

I have three 1858s . An uberti 8", a pietta 8", and a pietta 5½". All .44s
The 5½" sheriff's model is my favorite, however....its harder to load with the loading lever(seriously), and it's not historically correct.
The uberti is a great gun, but the grip is too small for me. The piettas grips are better.

The lockwork in my uberti's is very crisp and defined, noticeably so. The piettas aren't quite as distinct.

I have heard from someone 'in the know' that claims the pietta frames are slightly heavier and stronger if you ever want to install a conversion cylinder for smokeless cartridges.

My personal preference for a new c&b revolver would be an 8" pietta '58.

These are just my notes to help you with an informed decision.
Best wishes

 

[TheOutlawKid]

The date stamp on all piettas is under the barrell and the body has a date code of 2016. Yes the only difference from 2014 to 2015 is the pietta tail on the backstrap and trigger guard...all my gund are post 2016 and i mix and match parts of the t/g, b/s, and grip. Theres no way im going to accept a gun thats been sitting on a shelf for years since 2014 and paying 2018 prices especially when they have new ones in stock. The 2014 gun would not be of any use to me...besides i hate that old pietta tail

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Not sure if u can see...but all newer piettas, (i think everything after cnc) have a date stamp of the year on the bottom barrel covered by the ram rod. Not sure if u can see but heres the 2016

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Woops forgot pic..
Heres a 2017 on a pietta 1851 old silver..


And as we all know all pietta frames have a two letter date code. Such as "CS" is 2017 etc. Cylinders to my knowledge or experience dont have a date Or date code stamp. Ive never has a gun where the barrels year stamp didnt match the body...dixie gun works has sent me a gun that had two different codes. I asked pietta if they did that and they said no that they send them out with matching stamps. Dixie was very shady in the dealings ive had with them. Still have emails too. Very rude

 

[expat_alaska]

The date stamp on all piettas is under the barrell

It is not a date code stamp. The number is 2010, and it is on all 5 of the 1851 Navy barrels I have looked at, probably an internal factory number for parts or an assembly number. The last zero is somewhat double stamped on all of them, probably from the die. Date stamps are Roman numerals (early guns) and two alpha characters in a rectangle (post 1974 guns).

YMMV..

Regards,

Jim.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Its a year stamp. All my barrels years match my body date code stamp. For example all my guns bodies with a CS have a barrel stamped 2017, all my CP stamped bodies have a barrel stamped 2016. Its a date manufactured stamp. The year date stamp was confirmed by pietta when i contacted them on 2 different occassions. Pietta stated the body date code should also match the barrel year stamp. Its common practice and something they work hard to keep in order especially for warranty purposes.

 

[rodwha]

Didn’t do that in 2013? Mine was bought for me as a Christmas present and it is blank as far as a stamped date.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Herers my CS stamped body 1851 London from EMF and it has a very clear 2017 on the barrel

 

[TheOutlawKid]

I think it started in 2015. Not sure..i know they made lots of changes from 2014 to 2015. The earliest ive seen is 2014

 

[TheOutlawKid]

..alsp the 2014s i saw with stamps were London models with steel backstraps and trigger guards. The 2014 1861 model first sent by dixie to me did have the barrell stamped with 2014...but my friend has a brass bodied 2014 pietta 1851 .44 cal and it has no stamp. All my guns are now 2016 and up and all have matching barrel year stamps and body code stamps.

 

[rodwha]

I think it started in 2015. Not sure..i know they made lots of changes from 2014 to 2015. The earliest ive seen is 2014

I may have, and likely did, missed it, but do you have pre ‘14 post CNC Piettas? Curious if the quality further improved. I’m happy enough with my NMA but it required a lot of little things. I wanted an Uberti, but the wife saw the sale price with a free starter kit and got it instead. It’s a good gun, but I’d buy an Uberti if I were to want another (and I kinda do...).

 

[TheOutlawKid]

I personally saw a huge difference in quality with 2016 and 2017-2018 are amazing quality...they usually have smooth precise timing and barrel wedge are easy to remove...unlike sometimes when i got an older pietta and removing the wedge was a headache at first. Also they paid more attention to cylinder gap. My pietta old silver 1851 is a 2017 model and is the best i have with .0015 cylinder gap. Both My 2017 and 2018 pietta 1851s also are of exreme quality being from EMF and have .002 cylinder gap and excelleng timing. Thats why i decided all my guns must be 2016 and above because i noticed a huge difference and thats the time frame when pietta really started to work on revamping their quality starting in 2015 and it shows with what theyre releasing now and days

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Oh and yes i have owned pre 2015 guns...most needed lots of work and the quality on average wasnt the same as to what u get now. Even their internals seem of better quality like their hand springs and lighter main springs. I think over all they changed the quality of their internals. I have an old old batch of hands from pre 2014 and they all broke their springs easier...the newer peitta springs last a whole lot longer. Although i customize my guns and remove the bolt and trigger spring and make my own two peice precision spring. Mr. rodwha if you have a pietta colt id be happy to set up ur gun with my set up for free. Youll never have to worry about a broken sear spring and u can cock your gun all day long and ur hammer and trigger pull will be smoother and lighter yet same stock main spring strength for guaranteed cap ignition

 

[rodwha]

Oh and yes i have owned pre 2015 guns...most needed lots of work and the quality on average wasnt the same as to what u get now. Even their internals seem of better quality like their hand springs and lighter main springs. I think over all they changed the quality of their internals. I have an old old batch of hands from pre 2014 and they all broke their springs easier...the newer peitta springs last a whole lot longer. Although i customize my guns and remove the bolt and trigger spring and make my own two peice precision spring. Mr. rodwha if you have a pietta colt id be happy to set up ur gun with my set up for free. Youll never have to worry about a broken sear spring and u can cock your gun all day long and ur hammer and trigger pull will be smoother and lighter yet same stock main spring strength for guaranteed cap ignition

I greatly appreciate the offer but I have yet to purchase a Colt. I feel I need the Police, and I want a Walker and likely an 1851 Navy, the Walker for the history and sheer size/power, and the Navy because it’s supposedly the best handling/pointing pistol. I’d likely buy an extra cylinder and barrel to ream/line to .40 cal like the prototypes. As is I just have my NMA Sheriff and 7.5” ROA.