Permit Renewal Time - Need CCW Advise

[Rockrivr1]

My current Massachusetts firearms permit is coming around for renewal. It's a Class A (Large Capacity) permit. It's currently listed as a Recreation and Target Practice permit, which unfortunately doesn't allow me to CCW. With that said, I'm going to ask for an All Lawful Purposes permit this time around. My only problem though is that I will most likely have to go in front of the Chief to explain why I want it. Not exactly sure what I should say. So I'm looking for some advise. What did some of you write or tell the police in your area so they issued you a CCW permit? I have no criminal record and have been in the military, but I'm not sure if that is a good enough reason in my state.

For those of you in Massachusetts, has anyone had to renew or know someone who has in Uxbridge. I'm trying to figure out if this will be a problem or not.

Thanks for the help!!

 

[jamz]

I don't think that there is a formula that will guarantee that the chiefs will allow you to exercise your natural rights as a human being (i.e. LTC ALP). If you have a strongly anti chief, you are SOL no matter what. Carry lots of cash? He'll tell you to hire Brinks. Go to bad neoghborhoods? He'll tell you to get police escort.

If he is on the fence sort of, I think it works to present a rationale for carrying, cite some examples of times in which things could have gone badly for you that were instances that were not of your making, but were rather forced upon you. Try to reinforce the belief that you are a practical person who would be carrying out of reluctant necessity rather than bloodthirsty desire for revenge or vigilanteism. (sp---)

Does your work bring you into bad areas against your will? Do you have to visit relatives in bad areas? Are you friends with someone who has an enemy such that they might become your enemy as well, despite your best attempts to not get involved? All these might be reasons that the chief might be sympathetic to.

I convinced my fairly anti chief to give me unrestricted from a few simple sentances during the interview. My rationale was that work brought me into both Springfield MA and Chelsea MA late at night carrying valuable (or valuable-seeming) computer equipment. As you know, these are not the nest of places, so I cited some instances in which "kids" would congregate around the parking lot where I parked, and I thought that it would be tactically bad to go out there, and had been forced to wait inside until they broke up several times.

He then asked me if I had a gun with me, would I go outside then. I responded to the effect of Hell No, that's just asking for trouble. I'd still stay inside, but the reason that I wanted to carry was in case I didn't have an inside to go back to, if you know what I mean. In other words, I stressed that if I really had no other means of escape.

That was what convinced him that I would hopefully be a pretty responsible person. Of course, I also stressed the legal ramifications, personal ramifications etc. of a self defense shooting and convinced him that it really really wasn't something I wanted to be involved in if I had the choice. I also stated that my only goal was to get back to my family at the end of the day. Were I younger and single, I'm not sure it would have gone so well.

Good luck with the renewal!

-James

 

[aguyindallas]

Wow, I am so glad I live in Texas. I dont want or mean to hijack your thread, but it really is sad to have to be in your shoes. I used to live in California, so trust me, I understand.

Good luck to you and keep us posted.

 

[aut2no]

Rockrivr,
First, Jamz just gave you solid advise on the temperment/rationale issue with the chief.
Secondly, I get this feeling that you're going down this road alone? Are you a member of GOAL? Have you considered one of the attorneys who specialize in prepping applicants. Sounds like you've moved into this town since your first Class A issued. Have you built local relationships at the range...got to know any local LEOs? Strategic references.
Thirdly, your best help may not be from this board - most of whom do not live in this state and whose advise may be irrelevant.

Good Luck & keep us posted.

 

[TheEgg]

I will most likely have to go in front of the Chief to explain why I want it.

I was going to go one a tirade here -- this kind of thing just punches my buttons, but I think I will just sit here and be sad about the times in which we live.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Tell him you will kick his ass if he doesn't give you the permit.

Then flip him the bird and call his mama a hoe.

 

[juggler]

Shouldn't that be 'ho'?
This thread makes me count my blessings.....I don't have the freedom like some(VT or TX come to mind), but you poor folks in NY and MA................ it's creepy the hoops they make you jump through

 

[Sean Cloherty]

I will be in the same boat for renewal next year.

I despise going to the cop shop on bended knee to beg for what our forefathers gave their lives to protect. Additionally the whole process is undignified and offensive.


Does anyone else notice the HUGE conflict of interest in allowing the chief of police to make his own requirements (and they are allowed to do so by MGL Ch. 180 - additional references, doctor's O.K. etc.) and enforcing them?

I have a difficult time contemplating this because, as a rational adult, this makes my head spin.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I will most likely have to go in front of the Chief to explain why I want it.

That's not what it says in the Second Amendment.

 

[Third_Rail]

You want bad LTC stories from MA? My town doesn't issue them to women. Ever.


Nice, no?



Rockrivr1, have you though about simply stating the permit is for all lawful purposes? That's the standard answer that seems to work, no explanation needed.

Of course, that's really dependant on the town.

 

[Bravo11]

I'm not up on other states laws but do you have to have a permit to
own a gun in Mass?

 

[Third_Rail]

Yep. There's a permit (and a 6 month wait! ) for rifles/shotguns.

There's a seperate permit for pistols and rifles with capacity of 10+ /shotguns with capacity of 5+...

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Here's what Packing.org has to say on the subject:

In Massachusetts, licenses to carry firearms are issued for a specific purpose, and the law allows for undefined "restrictions" to be placed on its use. If you wish to carry on your person for personal protection, you should request a class a license for "all lawful purposes." You will be required to state, in writing, why you have "reason to fear injury to your person or property." This could include working in high-risk professions, routinely carrying large sums of money or valuable items, threats against your person, working in high-risk areas or during high-risk times. Try to move beyond a "generalized fear of crime" and be as specific as possible.

 

[jamz]

To clarify, it's the same application, same requirements, same fee no matter what permit you get. Wether you want a LTC (License to carry) Class A ( i.e. CCW so long as it's unrestricted) or LTC Class B (Can't CCW, no standard capacity mags) Why do they call it a license to carry if you can't carry? Hello Massachusetts government! The least license is an FID (Firearms ID card)- you need one of these to posess, own, transport any little gun or a single round of ammunition. Oh, and as a little bit of foul icing on this s**t cake, there's a MANDATORY year jail term for offenses. (Though the cops when I got my permit says no one has ever actually had to serve this mandatory term)

 

[Model520Fan]

Good advice above from some of the MA residents. As you know, it varies wildly from chief to chief. However, I am under the impression that ALP is becoming much more common, and Chief Glidden, who wrote the book that some go by, actually recommends that to chiefs for reasons stated in the book.

Be sure you apply for renewal PLENTY early. I understand that nowadays another state agency is holding up the PD's quite a bit.

 

[Third_Rail]

Model520Fan, the hold-up in renewal/new applications is 6 months in some parts of MA... :banghead:


And for $100, you'd think they'd work faster.

 

[Rockrivr1]

Thanks everyone for the advise. My permit expires at the beginning of summer so I thought I had some time to get ready. I wasn't aware of the 6 month backlog. Guess I'll get my application in this month just to make sure I don't fall short.

Actually aut2no you are absolutely correct. I was issued my permit out of a different town. When I first applied for an ALP permit the police station called and set up an appointment for me to meet with the Chief. He was a nice enough guy and I ended up talking to him for over half an hour. We talked about the town, my job, how long have I been shooting etc and at the end he indicated he would issue the Class A permit, but not for ALP. I didn't want to argue with the guy in his office figuring I'd end up not getting it at all so I got my permit and left. I never could figure out why he wouldn't give me the ALP permit. :banghead: That was 4 years ago and now that I'm up for renewal. I want to make sure I get an ALP this time around.

I'm gonna contact GOAL like Jamz indicated and see what advise they can give me. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[shermacman]

Join GOAL.
http://www.goal.org/
I received my Class A from Hingham, Mass without any real trouble. The licensing officer asked a few questions to see if I were a hot head looking for trouble. "Some one cuts you off in a parking lot..." those types of scenarios. Several of my friends on the South Shore who live in other towns have had similar experiences, just an interview, license approved. There are real horror stories in some towns, too much leeway given to the licensing officer.
Join GOAL.

 

[Benjamin]

Hi.

3rd rail - you live in Hull?

I've had a great deal of experience in this realm,
including some with the attorneys who do application
prep.

Here are a few of my general experiences in a nutshell.
I just worked a 16 hour shift, so they are rambling, and out of order.

First off - present yourself well.
If you can, type the application.

Make sure everything is spelled correctly.

For references - think about this carefully.
You will encounter more success if your references
are people of some stature or importance.
Cops love to see other cops as references.
If you've got a friend who is a doctor, lawyer,
town officer, etc...it does not hurt.

Discuss things with your references in some depth.
If you can get them to write a letter of reference
which you include with your application, you're
more likely to get the class A-ALP.

There's a section on the application which why
you want the license. Put "All lawful purposes".

You might want to put "all lawful purposes -
please see my attached letter detailing my proper
purpose to carry a firearm"

If you're going to include this personal statement,
put the same thought into it that you would a college
application. Avoid politics. Don't mention
that this is part of your second amendment right
to own liberty teeth to take back the country.

Focus on your responsible ownership for the past
X years. Mention how you're a responsible and
active shooter, a member of ____ club.

Your job may put you in a remote location with valuable tools or stock late at night. You know that you'd never use a gun to defend the property, but...geez, Chief, I'm concerned that this puts me at a higher risk of violent assault.

If you have any physical handicap, are of slight stature, or are in advancing years, mention that you are at a severe handicap in case of violent assault. Knee/leg/hip/ankle injuries may mean you're physically unable to retreat effectively, and require a handgun as the last resort, should all your attempts to avoid conflict fail.

"In closing, I hope you'll agree that I have
the proper purpose (recreational shooter, possible need for protection)
proper attitude and discipline to carry a firearm."

 

[aut2no]

Rockriver,

Join GOAL (a must), My range has mandatory rule to join GOAL & NRA. If you don't get one of the 3 or 4 gunowner attorneys, at least speak with someone at GOAL (AFTER you join).

Your last time license application, you spoke for quite awhile, yet in the end, didn't get the ALP. This time consider your conversation...and be cautious that it doesn't bait you into an area of discomfort for the chief. For example, don't mention how much fun your Serbu BFG is and does he have any concealment clothing suggestions for it. (I'm just kidding - but you get my point?) Think of any training classes like NRA sponsored...leave out the Thunder Ranch...get my drift?

I'm guessing you're in your 20's...new in your community with no local family ties ?? While it shouldn't make a difference, in a "may issue/chief empowered" scenario, put yourself in the chief's position that a decison in your favor is in effect a defacto endorsement of you. This is why I encourage all new applicants I know to build strategic relationships AHEAD of time.

As mentioned, Chief Glidden, indeed, is the top dog. He runs a LEO discussion group online, but membership is restricted to current LEOs only. Would love to have insight into the advice he gives.

Edited for typo

 

[aut2no]

How coincidental

Catching up on a couple of months of my internet groups reading and look what I saw on MassCops.com

http://www.masscops.com/phpBB2/about5629.html

You are cordially invited to attend this Free seminar (Braintree Rifle and Pistol Club is picking up the tab for the speaker) on the recent changes (September 2004) to the MA Firearms Laws that effect civilian and law enforcement gun owners alike.

Please post the info below at your gun clubs, favorite gun shops, police department, etc.

Regards,
LenS


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


MA Firearms Law Update Seminar

Braintree Rifle & Pistol Club, Inc.

Location: New Clubhouse

Speaker: Chief Ron Glidden

January 23, 2005, 9AM - 12Noon



FREE, Bring Your Family and Friends! NO Reservations Required. Breakfast will be available from the club kitchen.

· Learn about the NEW MA gun laws that went into effect in September, 2004.

§ New LTC/FID the size of a MA Drivers License

§ New LTC/FID issued for 6 Years

§ New Review Board to provide an appeals mechanism for those legally disqualified from owning guns for prior minor offenses

§ Etc.

· Learn how the MA "Assault Weapons Ban" from 1998 affects us since the Federal Ban expired in September, 2004.

· For Retired and Active Law Enforcement Officers, learn how MA plans on dealing with the new Federal HR 218 LEO CCW Law.

· Information on MA gun laws, licensing, storage, transportation, etc.

Bring Your Questions and get answers from the most authoritative source on MA Firearms Law in the State!

Our Speaker: Chief Ron Glidden is the Chief of Police in Lee, MA, chairman of the Gun Control Advisory Board, firearms instructor and author of the Law Enforcement Guide to Firearms Law (sold by the Municipal Police Institute, Inc.).

Directions can be found at http://www.brp.org/html/directions.html Location is at 788 Liberty St., Braintree, MA behind the DAV Hall and to the Right of Liberty Woods Apartment/Condo Complex (Club access road is to the Right off of the Condo roadway at the rotary).

 

[Chipperman]

Some excellent advice above.
Call GOAL. They sometimes are familiar with certain CLEO's. If you give them his name and they groan, that's a bad sign.

Good Luck!

 

[outofbattery]

I happen to be lucky enough to live in a town with a Shall Issue CLEO so as long as you have a clean background and apply , you can get whatever license you'd like . The real problem of gun ownership in MA is not in the State law so much that it is the arbitrary nature that CLEO's do not at least have guidelines for go:no go on the ALP . When I got my LTC this past spring it took all of 10 minutes at the station , I simply asked the Sgt. who handles applications for an LTC and wrote "for all lawful purposes" on the bottom line and got a phone call to pick up my license on the 4th Sunday . If all agencies worked the same way then we really wouldn't have all that bad of CCW laws and wouldn't be having this discussion . One thing that I have been told is that informing them that you want an ALP for protection , though its fairly obvious why one would want to and it's entirely counterintuitive , is a fairly sure way to not get an ALP .


For the Texan , the licensing is a PITA but once licensed our actual ability to carry is far less hindered than yours so there are tradeoffs to everything . For example , I never have to worry about what businesses forbid CCW or what restaurants I can attend if they serve alcohol . I'm not aware if TX has a waiting period for handguns or a limit per month like some states have , but neither exist here . Not saying that it is *better* in terms of firearms freedom , but the reality is that MA is often brought up as the worst case scenario in the US for gun owners when it's quite far from being nearly as bad as NJ , IL , CA , NE .

 

[Rockrivr1]

More great advise. I really do appreciate the information.

Aut2no, thank you very much for the link. I'm definitely going to be in Braintree on the 23rd. Sounds like it will be very informative and if it's not brought up, I will ask about what he looks for in an ALP applicant. You are right again in that I'm new in the community. I bought a house just a few months ago and I'm just settling in. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance yet to really get to know anyone, so I'm hoping that doesn't work against me. As to being in my 20's, I could only wish. Pushing the late 30's barrier. Thanks for the smile though this morning.

One of the guidelines for the clubs I belong to is that you have to be a NRA member. I've been one for years so that wasn't a problem. It's stupid of me, but I never did join GOAL. I'm about to change that though. I printed out the application last night and I'm sending it in today. I will definitely use them as a resource this time around.

 

[jobu07]

The hoops to jump through in NY aren't nearly as bad as some folks think. At least from my perspective. I know right well it's not right, but hey, you do what you have to do in order to have our rights. All I did was fill out a few forms and turned them in. A few months later my permit came in the mail. My only complaint was the amount of time it took (and having to do it in the first place...).

But anyway, rationality I suppose is the best bet when you need to explain to someone about your god given right to protect yourself. Common sense coupled with a level head will go a long ways with people in a position of authority I've found.