Does anyone else wonder if the $275 Drop-in auto sear ad that's been in the Shotgun News for a few years is nothing more than an ATF set up? I mean think about it-- They can only deliver COD (meaning you must physically hand over the cash to a "deliveryman" in person) And yet the seller is sophisticated enough to have an 800 phone number. The ad claims that the sears are "pre-81" whatever that means, but If the ad is true and actually legal, why do people routinely pay $12,000+ for a legal class III M16 if you can get this thing for 275? Are people really dumb enough to fall for this entrapment? I mean that ad has been around for years!
Phony Shotgun News Ad--ATF Set-up?
- Thread starter Tony A
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boofus
Guest
Yes it's bad news. You have to be able to prove the sear was made before 1981, otherwise they can charge you with possession of an unregistered machinegun. You're not innocent until proven in the eyes of the ATF.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
I guess he must have been promoted recently: he's been issued a first name.
I know Agent Schmuckatelli well, he is a nice gun and smiles when he puts on the handcuffs.
Seriously, those ads are probably not a BATF scam, but they are deliberately misleading. Auto sears made before 1981 are legal to own, since it was then that BATF ruled the auto sear itself to be a machinegun. The key here is that the sears themselves are legal to OWN without registration or a transfer tax. The kicker (and what the ads don't say) is that if you install the auto sear in a gun, you have manufactured a machinegun, and that IS illegal. If you even own a gun into which the auto sear will fit, you could be charged with intent to manufacture a machinegun (although that is a tougher one to prove).
In other words, avoid the auto sears. Even if the sellers are not BATF, they are liars who will giggle all the way to the bank while you try to tell BATF you are innocent based on what you think the ad said.
Jim
Seriously, those ads are probably not a BATF scam, but they are deliberately misleading. Auto sears made before 1981 are legal to own, since it was then that BATF ruled the auto sear itself to be a machinegun. The key here is that the sears themselves are legal to OWN without registration or a transfer tax. The kicker (and what the ads don't say) is that if you install the auto sear in a gun, you have manufactured a machinegun, and that IS illegal. If you even own a gun into which the auto sear will fit, you could be charged with intent to manufacture a machinegun (although that is a tougher one to prove).
In other words, avoid the auto sears. Even if the sellers are not BATF, they are liars who will giggle all the way to the bank while you try to tell BATF you are innocent based on what you think the ad said.
Jim
orangeninja
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I don't think that to incorrectly represent an illegal item as legal by a leo agency would fly. That is entrapment. However, if the seller readily acknowledges that the item is illegal and you knowingly buy it anyways, then it is a legit sting. To represent something as legal when it is not, by a law enforcement agency would negate mens rea' or criminal mindset, since the illegal activity was not known to the offender and secondly the police initiated the criminal nature of the transaction or represented the transaction as being legal.
cracked butt
Member
Is there any way to determine if the sears were made before 1981 versus last week in someones garage?
Another thought- what if these pieces were out of spec and didn't work anyhow? If they didn't work, just how did you come to that conclusion without committing a felony? Who are you going to complain to, the better business Bureau? The BATFE?
Another thought- what if these pieces were out of spec and didn't work anyhow? If they didn't work, just how did you come to that conclusion without committing a felony? Who are you going to complain to, the better business Bureau? The BATFE?
sting operations
Sarah Brady et al. have tried to run their own sting operations .
"Million Mom" Goes Undercover (Well, sort of...)
There was something about the ad that appeared on Gloria Culver's website, CSP Gun Talk (http://www.jouster.com), that just didn't seem quite right.
WTS: AR & AKs & Accesories
Posted By: Linda <email redacted>
Date: Tueday, 13 April 2004, at 9:27PM
My husband has passed away and following Assult weapons and accessories are for sale. I have been advised these are fair market values for pre-ban weapons and just wish to see them in the hand of his fellow enthusiasts:
1. AK-47 Polytech Legend $700.00
2. Russian SVD with Scope, $800.00
3. Colt AR-15 with 16" barrel and collapsing stock, $ 900.00
4.Polytech M14 1itg 4 Magazines, $800.00
5.10 each Colt 30 round magazines, $120.00
Please call 805-(phone # redacted) as I do not have much access to e-mail,
Thank you,
Linda
CSP Gun Talk regulars weren't fooled.
"Linda" was quickly outed as Linda S. Vaughn, the Southeast Region's Senior Associate Director for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence United with the Million Mom March. The fact that the phone number she listed was her Brady/MMM office number didn't leave much doubt as to her identity.
Gloria Culver said, "It didn't take much to figure what this was, it was nothing but bait to get some guy to fall for 'maybe' an illegal weapons transfer. She underestimated experienced gun owners! BIG TIME!" Ms. Culver also made it a point to call Ms. Vaughn herself, and told her that she would be reporting her to the BATFE for posting a misleading ad. (As of this writing, no charges have been filed.)
This probably won't be the last time this year that anti-rights advocates try to play detective. Long on arrogance and short on knowledge, these crusaders will be plowing ahead with plans designed to prove to the "unsuspecting" populace that 2nd Amendment supporters are vile heathens whose blind love of firearms is responsible for all the world's ills.
Incidents like this, though, only serve to prove that sometimes it pays to look beyond the end of one's nose.
Sarah Brady et al. have tried to run their own sting operations .
"Million Mom" Goes Undercover (Well, sort of...)
There was something about the ad that appeared on Gloria Culver's website, CSP Gun Talk (http://www.jouster.com), that just didn't seem quite right.
WTS: AR & AKs & Accesories
Posted By: Linda <email redacted>
Date: Tueday, 13 April 2004, at 9:27PM
My husband has passed away and following Assult weapons and accessories are for sale. I have been advised these are fair market values for pre-ban weapons and just wish to see them in the hand of his fellow enthusiasts:
1. AK-47 Polytech Legend $700.00
2. Russian SVD with Scope, $800.00
3. Colt AR-15 with 16" barrel and collapsing stock, $ 900.00
4.Polytech M14 1itg 4 Magazines, $800.00
5.10 each Colt 30 round magazines, $120.00
Please call 805-(phone # redacted) as I do not have much access to e-mail,
Thank you,
Linda
CSP Gun Talk regulars weren't fooled.
"Linda" was quickly outed as Linda S. Vaughn, the Southeast Region's Senior Associate Director for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence United with the Million Mom March. The fact that the phone number she listed was her Brady/MMM office number didn't leave much doubt as to her identity.
Gloria Culver said, "It didn't take much to figure what this was, it was nothing but bait to get some guy to fall for 'maybe' an illegal weapons transfer. She underestimated experienced gun owners! BIG TIME!" Ms. Culver also made it a point to call Ms. Vaughn herself, and told her that she would be reporting her to the BATFE for posting a misleading ad. (As of this writing, no charges have been filed.)
This probably won't be the last time this year that anti-rights advocates try to play detective. Long on arrogance and short on knowledge, these crusaders will be plowing ahead with plans designed to prove to the "unsuspecting" populace that 2nd Amendment supporters are vile heathens whose blind love of firearms is responsible for all the world's ills.
Incidents like this, though, only serve to prove that sometimes it pays to look beyond the end of one's nose.
Schmuckatelli
Member
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- Jun 29, 2004
- Messages
- 1
I had heard that there were folks on this board impersonating a federal officer. Now I have the proof! Beware, cpileri . . .
Zach S
Member
Probably. Machinery has made a lot of "improvements" and changes since the late 70s and early 80s. Tooling as well.
The odd thing is, the dinosaurs I've ran (as old as '78, currently 84) screw up less than the newer ones I've ran ( the newest being 98, give or take a year).
cracked butt
Member
So you might be able to tell by the amount or shape of the tool marks on the pieces?
It's one of those "you'd beat the rap, but you wouldn't beat the ride" things. I'm not suggesting that any agency has actually done this, but I also think that your reasoning, while logical, wouldn't neccesarily prevent an agency from pulling such a stunt. Especially the ATF which, historically, has used somewhat shady tactics.
Zach S
Member
Maybe. I dont know, but in this day and age it wouldn't surprise me if you could.
Warbow
Member
Do they know for sure it was her and not someone just creating an annoyance for her by having lots of people calling her number and asking about guns and accessories for sale? I know the MMM croud doesn't use a lot of common sense or reasoning, but it's hard to believe she would be so stupid that she'd use her main office number with "Hello, this is Linda Vaughn of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, how can I help you?" being the first thing heard when called.
Zach S
Member
Might be how she got busted. Everyone has brain farts.
orangeninja
Member
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- 3,117
"It's one of those "you'd beat the rap, but you wouldn't beat the ride" things. I'm not suggesting that any agency has actually done this, but I also think that your reasoning, while logical, wouldn't neccesarily prevent an agency from pulling such a stunt. Especially the ATF which, historically, has used somewhat shady tactics."
Techbrute....your warm cynical comments always make me smile.
However, if an agency willfully breaks the law, that is a violation of civil rights. If it is a FEDERAL AGENCY you may bring forth a Bivens Action. So shady tactics and against the law are two seperate things. It is academy 101 that they teach you that inciting criminal mindset is entrapment. A police officer cannot place a bag of stolen money on the ground, walk up to you, tell you to take it cause no one will know and it would be okay and then arrest you. That is against the law.
Don't ask me how I know. I'm guessing here.
Techbrute....your warm cynical comments always make me smile.
However, if an agency willfully breaks the law, that is a violation of civil rights. If it is a FEDERAL AGENCY you may bring forth a Bivens Action. So shady tactics and against the law are two seperate things. It is academy 101 that they teach you that inciting criminal mindset is entrapment. A police officer cannot place a bag of stolen money on the ground, walk up to you, tell you to take it cause no one will know and it would be okay and then arrest you. That is against the law.
Don't ask me how I know. I'm guessing here.
I would stay away from anything that claims to "legally" convert a semi to full auto. Or even "simulate" full auto such as the hellfire device, which maybe ATF legal but illegal in the State you in live in.
Nowdays I would even be careful about who I buy from or sell a gun too. The buyer or seller could be committing a felony without knowing it. For example, the state of IL a few years ago made it a requirement that privant transfers are subject to waiting periods. While this maybe hard to enforce, there are people in prison(or so I heard) for volating this unknowly.
Watch your back
-Bill
fullautomachinegunner
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I wouldn't waste ammo on full auto guns. If you want one just make your own auto sear. If you're smart if you want an Ar-15 I'd buy the unfinished lower receiver and finish it.
rbernie
Contributing Member
No thread necromancy.
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