Physics Teacher Under Fire for Physics Experiment

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The best teachers push it sometimes. I have no problem with his experiment on or off school property.

My brother teaches hunter safety at school, outdoor biology, along with other honors type classes. These are the teachers you remember for the rest of your life. How many people can you remember from grade school? Bet you know your teacher's name.
 
Being an Mechanical Engineering student, I see as a very practical way to demonstrate the actual physics involved with the problem.

That exact problem was on an exam I have taken at the college level and many times before. It is a mainstay as a fundamental application of physics.

DCH
CE here, I've seen that problem a number of times.
It's a pretty straight forward demonstartion of the conversion of kinetic energy into potential energy.
No, not quite. It shows the conservation of momentum. By using the change of potential energy you determine by weight x hieght, you find out what the blocks initial kinetic energy was. You cannot say that this is the bullet's initial kinetic energy as well however. This is an inelastic collision, so once you get the kinetic energy of the two together, you get the velocity, find out it's momentum, which is the momentum of the bullet, which you find out the initial kinetic energy. Now the kinetic energy of the bullet minus the kinetic energy of the two together gives you the change of thermal energy of the system.
 
For the six hours I spend in my HS all day, I could learn in 5 minutes. Most of it is disruptive students, innefective teaching, and overall bad curriculum. They'll spend a weak on something like calculating velocity by saying, sit here and do problems 1-35. Then we do it again the next day. They could just say, here it is, this is how you do it move on. I can honestly say I have learned very little or very useless things in my entire public education career. What I learn is on my own. Most of school today is political, and lets spend 129872 days on this so everybody knows what they are doing, or lets make all these crazy rules to give the illusion that they make school better. Can't wait for college in a few months. BUBYE HIGH SCHOOL
 
It's just absolute madness, from my point of view," said Feinberg, one of the founding members of the National Emergency Assistance Team, which has responded to most of the school shootings in the country. "It is not only crazy in concept, in light of the world we live in it is absolutely irresponsible."

Feinberg said he is shocked that a teacher would bring a gun to school in the wake of tragedies like Columbine, regardless of the educational purpose.

"Were there not other ways of illustrating whatever physical principles he was trying to demonstrate?" Feinberg asked. "What's the message we are giving bringing a loaded gun into a public setting and firing it off. It's a terrible model to project on students."


Is it me or does this guy sound hopelessly hysterical? What a sissy!

I looked up Momma's Boy in the dictionary and found Mr. Feinberg's likeness.
 
While all the attention is on the bedwetting whining the fact is that this demonstration is easily done with a $50 ballistic pendulum which is controllable equipment that is purpose built to demonstrate the conservation of momentum and energy in inelastic collisions. No need for a firearm and no need for the potential hazard.

While the demonstation with the M1 carbine is dramatic and theatrical it is far less safe than the same demonstration with the equipment available from any teaching/science supply house.

Don't we insist that any firearms use follow the 4 rules? Why suspend the backstop rule now?

I love the guy's spirit, but deplore his judgment.

BalistcPend_550_1_M.jpg
 
hso,

PHP:
While the demonstation with the M1 carbine is dramatic and theatrical

That is exactly the point. Kids will remember this experiment. They would not remember the one you suggest.


it is far less safe than the same demonstration with the equipment available from any teaching/science supply house.

This experiment is not any more dangerous than sodium chunks, the kerosene in which it is stored, the various magnesium/phosphorous experiments, etc...

PHP:
Don't we insist that any firearms use follow the 4 rules? Why suspend the backstop rule now?

Because he is not aiming at anything? The gun is being fired at point blank.

Even so, the backstop rule only states to "know your backstop." What is it you know about the backstop of his classroom that would violate the golden rule?
 
again

I am one out on the ragged edge of what I can get away with, I've been in some serious trouble and been toasted (not fired) a couple of times for hairy demonstrations and experiments. I taught a lesson on leverage using an atlatl and I still wouldn't even think of doing this experiment in class. I might do it at the range and video it, but not without prior approval. There is no way I would expect an 8 inch block of lumber to contain a .30 caliber bullet with people in the next room unless I was in a bunker with 2 foot thick walls. I wouldn't do that to my students ears even with triple hearing protection regardless of how they abuse them with speakers.

I am charged with the safety of people's most cherished responsibility- I hold that with the highest regard and respect.

Like I said, I think it should be let go with a reprimand but he is probably gonna burn.

(I use a box full of padding as the pendulum, the potato is captured and contained in the box, it doesn't have to "stick". This is very similar to the demonstration in the book "backyard ballistics" only mine is sturdier and easier to measure)
 
Huh?

It's a .30 Carbine round and it is being fired into a foot long piece of wood.

There is NO danger.

about hearing:
So you have never fired a gun in an indoor range before? People do it with handguns all the time and handguns have more of a bark than do puny carbines.
 
pdowg881, "Can't wait for college in a few months. BUBYE HIGH SCHOOL", hate to burst your bubble, but most of college is punching the time clock too. So is alot of grad degree stuff (to a lesser extent though). And they don't give you the answer b/c that is not really learning. Remember you can give a man a fish idea?
 
DO YOU KNOW WHAT HIS BACKSTOP IS? if not then keep quiet. The guy has been doing this for years. I would presume his military background would have taught him the basics of gun safety. I would also assume that every kid in there was wearing "eyes and ears" as that is mandatory in my son and daughters science class rooms for anything other than lectures.

yes you can buy a fancy machine that does the same thing. but does it capture the imagination of the students? Does it get them talking about Science after the class is over. NO, but this does, and i am willing to bet this guy has higher test score students, higher science retention and more demand for his classes than any other teacher in the system.

This is the same sort of teaching by involvement that has kids building trebouchet's mock ups of Da vinci's catapult, and egg saving devices.

I used to be able to write all day on the black board about the effects of segragation and "seperate but equal" and jim crow, But until I instituted that only people with green eyes could eat and drink at lunch time, that people with brown eyes could drink, and blues could only watch, did the ideas about how much unfairness based on skin tone seem to hit home.

The same with the concept of giving "couples" in schools a fertilised chicken or turkey egg and they had to keep it warm and safe for two weeks till it hatched and alive for two more weeks gave kids an idea about the amount of care needed for a offspring.

I support his Principle for taken the stand that he knew about it and had allowed it after examining the idea. That takes the pressure off the teacher.

I quit teaching many years ago because I was left out to dry by an Administration that never bothered to check any facts but reacted to a hearsay statement of a statement that I never made. What I had said was so totally distorted that the statement made no sense at all as reported and despite having twenty two kids who heard what I said. The district super intendant made a decision based on talking to people who were not even in the building when I supposed said what I said. I have had a deep distrust ever since for almost all school administrators as I listen to them whine about so many issues when they choose not to solve the issue the way it has to be.

(What I said was to the girls in my class the last hour before prom. I said, "ladies, no matter how upset you think your parents will be if you call at 1 am and ask for a ride home because your date has had too much to drink, even if you have had something to drink too, They will be much more upset if you get in that car and killed in a wreck on the way home."
This was relayed to the school board by a mom of a girl not in my class, that I had condoned drinking as long as they had a ride home. Considering that my state was an 18 and up drinking limit, and almost all the seniors were 18, it was not a stretch to think some alcohol might show up at or after prom. My contract was not renewed, even though they later reoffered it, I had lost the taste for the school board.
 
ok...

I know what a backstop is, and telling someone to keep quiet because you disagree on a definition is getting emotional and degrades the debate.

doing something for years doesn't make it right...

I do trebuchets and the other things you mentioned, and I already said I thought he only deserved a reprimand not to do it again. And I spoke of my fears that he would be burned. I was not the one who posted the little tabletop model.

I never said what he should have done, what you should have done or what should have happened. I gave my perspective on what goes on in classrooms and schools and the sometimes unjust way things are carried out.

Military experience or not, police or not, backstop or not, I think it was probably bad judgement to do the demo inside the school where there are so many uncontrolled variables. Not today in this legal climate. There are just too many other options.

He apparently is a good teacher, we need to keep the ones like him, not throw him away on a bad judgement call.

I suppose everything has been said that can be about this. I'll wait for the outcome.
 
DO YOU KNOW WHAT HIS BACKSTOP IS? if not then keep quiet. The guy has been doing this for years. I would presume his military background would have taught him the basics of gun safety.
Funniest things I've read in a week.

We guess at people's motives all the time. He broke the rules, he is the one that has to justify the backstop. Many have pointed out that school buildings themselves are insufficient to stop bullets. Yelling doesn't validate your point either.
The fact that nothing has happened yet is no justification either. Many people have bad safety habits and nothing has happened to them - yet.

As for having been in the military, no, they have crude group training. However, soldiers and ex-soldiers seem to think, like police, that they know quite a bit about firearms. I'd say it is somewhere around that of the average police officer. These aren't gun people by and large. Some know a lot, for others it is just something that is part of their job, like a computer. Now go ask a receptionist to spec out a computer for you.
 
Sometimes we let our enthusiasm for all-things-guns cloud our judgement. That's the thought that comes to mind as I read some of the posts supporting this demonstration.

Look, I'm a retired science teacher myself. Believe me, I wracked my brains daily trying to come up with new and innovative way to teach not only the basic science concepts, but a love and fascination for science. I have no doubt this guy is a good, even great, science teacher. But, as dramatic and memorable as this particular method may be, it crosses the line and goes beyond safety and responsibility. From a purely gun-advocacy point of view, consider the fallout if (when) something goes wrong. And don't say it can't. It would be handing the anti-gunners more ammunition for their cause. Besides, it's illegal.

With a little creative thinking, this guy could have come up with safer, and equally dramatic and memorable ways to teach the same principles. One poster here mentioned a potato gun. Or, he could have made a made a high quality video of the same demonstration done in a safer setting.

K
 
I cannot think of a realistic scenario where firing a gun in a classrrom full of students could possibly be construed as a good idea.
I like teachers that try to engage their students, and I don't think this guy should get much more than a reprimand, but this still foolish and unnecessarily dangerous.
I like Brandon's idea of using a potato gun. It can still get the students attention without being as dangerous.
 
Ballistics in physics class

I did this experiment as my project in first year physics in college with a revolver and using primer propelled wax bullets. Fancy carrying a revolver around on campus today! (Am I giving away my age?)

I'd say this teacher was a bit dumb for not realizing the implications of this demonstration in todays PC environment.
 
Creativity in teaching is always deplored mostly because it’s not recognized as teaching. Most of us spent 12 or 16 or more years sitting in class for a lecture. Occasionally, the teacher would move.

My daughter found she had most problems with the parents of the bright kids. She was an English teacher and at the end of their poetry segment she would stage a “Beatnik Café” for the kids. They’d do what they could to make the class look like a basement cafe, dress appropriately, dim the lights, and have poetry readings. Most were the kid’s own work. Occasional guests would stop in such as the janitor reciting “The Cremation of Sam McGee.” She stopped it when she got the AP kids. Too many of their parents felt that such an activity wasn’t teaching. Better they should practice rote memory skills or some such thing. Idiots.:banghead:
 
Seems incredible to me that he would contemplate such a thing without administrative approval. Also, if it has been done previously for many years with knowledge of administration (and how would you keep this a secret?) and with no objections their may be a legal precedent which suggests admin approval through "past practice". At our high school we have a shooting team and own rifles and shotguns. All shooting is done on a range 8 miles from the school under strict supervision. We live in a culutre of guns. Most 13 year old girls in my classes have pretty nice hunting rifles, although the numbers are declining as hunting and gun ownership in general seesm to be falling.
 
The dangers inherent in this experiment sound like they would be far more remote than say, sniffing too much ether in chemistry class, passing out, and whacking your head on a hard and sharp object.

Maybe we should remove all of the ether, sodium, kerosene, phosphorous, magnesium, ad nauseum, until all of the classrooms are perceived to be safe as deemed by the current left-wing school administrations.

I do agree with the ethics/legality issues, however, but isn't that what the point of the thread is about?
 
Well, I never had to take Physics in High School (was on an accelerated program, and somehow it wasn't required)...But I DID have to take it in college, and I dreaded it as I always had a serious problem with higher math (Fancy algebra and calculus)...Did GREAT in Geometry as it was "hands on" and I could "see" (visualise) what was going on(but higher algebra and calculus was too abstarct).... But the Physics professor I had in college was SO good, I ended up "acing" the course(A+, got me on the Dean's List)... And he was good because for every theory we explored, he would give a real world example of how things worked... RARELY did anyone ever have a question about what we were studying, and if we did, he would give yet another example of how things worked...One of the best teachers I ever had....
 
The only thing this teacher did wrong is not realize how politically correct and stupid high school has become.

As far as it being dangerous--shooting a gun in a classroom into a safe backstop once a year is orders of magnitude safer than all the students burning and cutting things for physics, chemistry, or biology experiments.
 
It's not a PC issue to those of us that consider the consequences of a safety failure to be the problem.

The commercial demo device, the potato hurler, etc are all devices used to teach these concepts. If he had video taped the demonstration with the carbine and then had the kids recreate it hands on with the safer methods I'd be 100% in his corner. If some phobic idiot had complained about the video demonstration having a gun in it I'd be 1000% in his corner. But if he had had a failure that resulted in an injury almost everyone here would be calling for his hide as an irresponsible fool who neglected the safety of his students. Let's not become so defensive that we defend anything involving the use of firearms.

The guy doesn't need to be fired he just needs to be told to find a safer way to conduct the demonstration.
 
My letter to mr. Einberg

Absolute madness Is living in world where people are so scared of things like guns, that they publicly rant like little girls about it. Grow a set Mr. (Whine)berg... :evil:
 
"Maybe we should remove all of the ether, sodium, kerosene, phosphorous, magnesium, ad nauseum, until all of the classrooms are perceived to be safe as deemed by the current left-wing school administrations."

REALITY CHECK

* ether is not used anymore, specimens come preserved and exhibit much better quality during dissection. We have too many problems with kids huffing white out and gasoline as it is.

* we have lots of sodium fun, but behind blast shields. Students are encouraged to do the experiment but with gloves, aprons, and face shields on.

* kerosene is only used to store/ship sodium and is disposed of according to EPA with the kitty litter it was shipped with.

* phosphorous is only sparingly done under a fume hood- if ever.

* We burn magnesium all the time, often to ignite thermite.

* I think too many people here played with too much mercury back in the day when it was considered "safe".

Maybe -just maybe we should drop some francium or cesium in some water just so it will "excite" the kids.
 
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