Pistol loads = What causes flyers other than the shooter?"

[LiveLife]

I need to add that to test ammunition and pistol, a Ransom rest is necessary to eliminate the shooter.

Yes, I agree.

That's why I am building a DIY hard rest (like the Ransom rest) for retirement. I plan to do future accuracy testing at 25/50 yards using the hard rest so we can determine mechanical accuracy without the human error factor. That way, if flyers are detected, we would know they are not from human error.

However, I am also planning to make scope mounts for Sig 1911/Glock 22/23/27 along with buying 38/357 revolvers with scope mounts and possibly Just Right carbines with 9/40/45 caliber conversion kits so I can conduct accuracy testing with the aid of optics.

My retirement spot has plenty of outdoor areas for shooting so I finally get to correlate chrono data with shot group sizes too.

 

[1SOW]

Did someone mention using ONLY new brass?
After pistol brass has been picked up at the range, stretched, sized again , shrunk, it will be different than the next one in the magazine.
According to "LEE" under "cartridge pressures and speeds", this has a measurable effect on accuracy..

so, New brass and the Ransom rest . The Ransom rest allows recoil/muzzle flip to have it's effect.

 

[LiveLife]

Did someone mention using ONLY new brass?

Yes.

So, what did I learn from the bullseye link about reducing flyers?

Use new brass

Forever seeking accuracy I started using cases that were from the same lot. Not just headstamps, but the same box.

When I did this my fliers all but disappeared

The top shooters i have shot next too (Bullseye) do not use cast bullets. They use factory jacketed match ammo and dont pick up the brass.

But part of the reason for this thread is to help aspiring match shooters like 1KPerDay, Chiltech500 and others develop as accurate as possible match loads using mixed range brass and plated bullets as once-fired/new brass and jacketed bullets may not be feasible.

So, how do we reduce/eliminate bullet setback?

reduce the diameter of your expander plug.

If you are using mixed range brass with varying number of reloadings/brass conditions/lot material inconsistencies/work hardening that may result in different amount of neck tension which will result in different amount of bullet setback/chamber pressures, this may be an option you want to consider to prevent bullet setback, especially when using smaller diameter jacketed/plated bullets.


As to human error/fatigue, if you plan on match shooting (whether bullseye type or action pistol type USPSA/IDPA/GSSF matches), you need to train deliberately so your grip/trigger/focus will not vary. Our local USPSA stage designer shot both USPSA/IDPA and lived to make the stages as challenging as he could and forced us to shoot with single strong/weak hand, shoot from prone/on back, shoot one hand from/around barricade, shoot at sliding/rotating/swinging/bobbing targets and to include stages where only one hand was allowed to change magazines and to perform a mandatory racking of the slide (all creative methods, as long as they were "safe" were allowed - I used between the knees method with muzzle pointed at the ground). All these required training and practice so our hand(s) remained steady throughout the match stage.

If your trigger finger and focus fail after several shots, then you simply need to train/practice harder but smarter using deliberate drills while monitoring your improvement. One of many things we did was to record videos of our stages to identify all the mistakes we made - including grip and trigger control. To be competitive, whether shooting bullseye or action pistol matches, you need to practice so your grip/trigger control remains steady and consistent even to the end of each match stage without fail.

I learned that once you step into the start box, your eyes/head need to lock with your grip/sights so wherever you looked, yours sights tracked exactly the same so all you had to do was consistently "press" the trigger to engage the targets. One tip a regional shooter gave me was to set a 25 yard target from the starting box of the practice stage and to practice shooting head shots before starting my practice stage run. This forced me to calm myself down and focus on shooting techniques and subsequent targets at 7-15 yards "seemed" easier to shoot double taps at in comparison. During actual matches, I imagined the 25 yard target as I approached the starting box to calm myself down and steady my grip/trigger.

 

[ljnowell]

Yes.




But part of the reason for this thread is to help aspiring match shooters like 1KPerDay, Chiltech500 and others develop as accurate as possible match loads using mixed range brass and plated bullets as once-fired/new brass and jacketed bullets may not be feasible.



If you are using mixed range brass with varying number of reloadings/brass conditions/lot material inconsistencies/work hardening that may result in different amount of neck tension which will result in different amount of bullet setback/chamber pressures, this may be an option you want to consider to prevent bullet setback, especially when using smaller diameter jacketed/plated bullets.


As to human error/fatigue, if you plan on match shooting (whether bullseye type or action pistol type USPSA/IDPA/GSSF matches), you need to train deliberately so your grip/trigger/focus will not vary. Our local USPSA stage designer shot both USPSA/IDPA and lived to make the stages as challenging as he could and forced us to shoot with single strong/weak hand, shoot from prone/on back, shoot one hand from/around barricade, shoot at sliding/rotating/swinging/bobbing targets and to include stages where only one hand was allowed to change magazines and to perform a mandatory racking of the slide (all creative methods, as long as they were "safe" were allowed - I used between the knees method with muzzle pointed at the ground). All these required training and practice so our hand(s) remained steady throughout the match stage.

If your trigger finger and focus fail after several shots, then you simply need to train/practice harder but smarter using deliberate drills while monitoring your improvement. One of many things we did was to record videos of our stages to identify all the mistakes we made - including grip and trigger control. To be competitive, whether shooting bullseye or action pistol matches, you need to practice so your grip/trigger control remains steady and consistent even to the end of each match stage without fail.

I learned that once you step into the start box, your eyes/head need to lock with your grip/sights so wherever you looked, yours sights tracked exactly the same so all you had to do was consistently "press" the trigger to engage the targets. One tip a regional shooter gave me was to set a 25 yard target from the starting box of the practice stage and to practice shooting head shots before starting my practice stage run. This forced me to calm myself down and focus on shooting techniques and subsequent targets at 7-15 yards "seemed" easier to shoot double taps at in comparison. During actual matches, I imagined the 25 yard target as I approached the starting box to calm myself down and steady my grip/trigger.

When you speak of practice that's imperative. To get to the point that you need to maximize your accuracy by doing the little things you have to practice a lot.

I generally shoot 500 rounds per week in my 2 bullseye guns alone with the majority of it from my M19.

 

[1066]

That's why I am building a DIY hard rest (like the Ransom rest) for retirement. I plan to do future accuracy testing at 25/50 yards using the hard rest so we can determine mechanical accuracy without the human error factor. That way, if flyers are detected, we would know they are not from human error.

.

Years ago I spent some time developing/testing loads with a Ransom rest. It's a great bit of kit and when use with a chronograph can give some meaningful results.

I was amazed at the accuracy achieved with some pistols, consistent 5 shot groups sub 1" were not unusual when shot through fixed barrel designs. Given you only have 4" or so of barrel that compares well with many .22 semi-auto rifles I've shot.

Using a revolver (.32 &.38), best accuracy, from the rest, was achieved by single loading each round into the same chamber every shot. This is a technique I used in the slow fire, precision stage of the UIT match. 6 minutes to fire 5 shots, plenty of time.

Loading/testing the .32 semi-auto target pistols was a little different, you need accuracy and reliability, sometimes it's a bit of a trade off.

Because these pistols are straight blowback it's a balance between reliably cycling the action and slamming the slide back too hard.

Juggling with crimp styles, bullet seating etc. was all part of the game.

Few, if any, of the combat "loose" barrel designs could compete for pure accuracy, even tricked out bushed and tightened types. Likewise 9mm's in any form.

If I was making a Ransom type rest from scratch I would try and incorporate a small hydraulic ram/damper of some sort to smoothly absorb more energy.


Just as a matter of interest - the UIT free pistol event is shot at 50 meters. Shot with one hand, unsupported with only iron sights. A bullseye target with a bull measuring 2".

The pistols are very specialised with fitted grips, almost like a wooden glove, the triggers are less than one ounce, single shot .22 LR. Long barrels.

A good competitive shot would be shooting consistently in the mid 90's. A real game for accuracy nerds.

Here's a taster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVc_a4vhV6E

 

[LiveLife]

I am a fan of the 25 meter Rapid Fire Pistol matches and these shooters redefine "accurate rapid fire" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toOlD2xdCa0

This is 2013 Finals 25m Rapid Fire Pistol Men - ISSF Rifle & Pistol World Cup. Simply amazing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgKeNaSrLMI

 

[spitballer]

I need to understand this;
- You use very light neck tension.
- You alter seating depth by .015"

And this change in seating is sufficient to make a difference to the Shot Start Initialisation pressure (or the inertia to overcome the lands)?

I understand you results but I cannot correlate the physics to it. So your seating tension is identical and instead of seating into the lands by moving the bullet back into the case by .030 you now only push it back by 0.015" but the bullet still occupies the same length of case neck, in other words the same neck tension. What exactly has changed other than .015" more travel?

First of all, my apologies to those only interested in pistol loads. If I had backpedaled to the original post again before replying this would not have happened. In response to A Leigh, yes, it did seem to make a difference (see photo of tight-necked group on thread "dogtown bullets" from about a month ago)and I won't try to explain the physics of it because I'm not sure I understand it myself, but if I had to guess I'd say it's because the extra length introduces the likelihood of pushing the projectile past the optimum position with any necks that are slightly tighter for whatever reason. There is always a slight variability in the pressure required to seat a bullet, although we always try to keep it to a minimum. That variability is directly transferred to the lands when we chamber a round and let the lands seat the bullet. And in the case flat-based bullets, although I have a very slight .0015" taper of the case necks which theoretically should assist smooth seating of the flat bases, they never seem to seat as consistently smooth as the boat-tails. The issue really came to light a couple of weeks ago when I got lazy and didn't readjust my seating die after seating some skinnier bullets and I got a couple of flyers from an otherwise very predictable group that was then loaded about 1/8" over. I thought at first that I was inadvertently compressing some of the loads by shortening them so much while they were laying on their side in the chamber but this didn't seem very realistic, although the cases were close to full (IMR 3031/.223) at the start. So it occurred to me then that leaving the flat-based bullets out so far may have simply introduced a certain sloppiness or inconsistency when they were seated by the chamber, and that the less they had to move while being seated in the chamber, the more likely they were to stay consistently tensioned against the rifling.

Again my apologies for straying from the subject of pistol loads. My interest is in the sharing of constructive information and safety, for all shooters.

 

[LiveLife]

No, actually it's my fault. I did not specify "pistol" in my original thread title.

After realizing going back and forth between pistol and rifle reloading may confuse some readers, I asked Walkalong to changed the title to reflect "Pistol loads".

Perhaps we could use a different thread for "rifle flyers" - Done, new thread started.

 

[RAT807]

I use the same load development for pistol as for rifle. Uniform primer pockets, trim to same length .748 and chamfer/deburr, weight sorted brass, same head stamp, roll the brass on the bench looking for wobbles, straight brass gets mouth expanded to .377 (9mm), sort bullets by bearing surface ( +/-.0015), seat bullets .003-.004 off the lands (measured from case head to bullet ogive, not the bullet tip). Load up and roll those rounds again looking at the bullet tip for any sign of wobbling. I run through a crimping die and just a slight touch to crimp at .376 Shoot a ladder test (looking for simular POI with consecutive powder charges), from a bench with a rest @ 25 yards. Shoot 5 shot groups from just below the node to just above the node. There maybe two nodes to experiment with. Shoot a 10 shot group to verify results.

Starline brass has given me more consistant results than Remington, Winchester, Federal, Magtec and Blazer. Pretty easy to get 50 within 1/2 grain of each other. I have taken a proven accurate load with Starline brass and loaded with once fired Federal brass, same weight, same length and could not match the Starline load. This weekend I will do some load development with Fed brass and see what powder charge it likes.

9MM is too short to use my concentricity gauge.:banghead: So I roll them on the bench and use a bright light. If the case is straight, no variations in light shines under the case as it rolls. This reduced my flyers, until I tried the Federal brass instead of Starline.

 

[pvs1959]

I seem to get a flyer about every 30 rounds with my semi-auto pistol.... even with my forearm resting on a bag. So to eliminate the "bow or the arrow" as the problem... what would people consider to be the most accurate commercial 9mm ammo to test with?

 

[LiveLife]

what would people consider to be the most accurate commercial 9mm ammo to test with?

Welcome to THR.

I would consider match ammunition from Atlanta Arms & Ammo as their 9mm 115 gr FMJ is tested to produce 1.5" at 50 yards and 115 gr XTP to produce 1.25" at 50 yards - http://www.atlantaarmsandammo.com/product-category/ammunition/match/

Their ammunition is used by many factory teams and match shooters - http://www.atlantaarmsandammo.com/competitive-shooting/

 

[LiveLife]

Note: Please post discussions specific to rifle load flyers on this other thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=761019

Both threads specifically exclude shooter input as a factor to keep discussion related to reloading variables.


While posting on jmorris' thread on "Your most accurate 9mm load" for carbine at 100 yards, since I must use mixed range brass for "plinking" loads, I pondered when a group becomes a pattern or whether a pattern is a cluster of flyers, especially at 50-100 yards.

So I decided to return to reloading basics and read through this thread and got the following summary which were heavily derived from bullseye match shooting links and THR bullseye match shooters:

- Quality/consistency of load directly affects flyers.

- To greatly eliminate flyers, new brass needs to be used (which is not an option for me).

- To reduce flyers, once-fired brass from same lot should be used (since my 9mm carbine loads are replacing 22LR plinking, I must use mixed range brass).

- 9mm carbine load accuracy, especially at longer range of 50-100 yards, depends heavily on bullet type (I ordered bullets to include JHP/HP plated bullets in addition to FMJ/RN bullets but within cost constrains as I can't use more expensive bullets like Gold Dot/HAP for plinking loads).

- Certain powders/charge loads are better than some other powders.

- Lower SD number loads don't necessarily produce smallest shot groups.

- Variations in neck tension (case wall thickness) and bullet seating depth (OAL/case length) are contributing factors.

- Flat/flatter base bullets may produce more consistent chamber pressures than bevel/rounded base bullets.

- Bullet setback during feeding from magazine can significantly affect chamber pressure.

So far I have only tested 115 gr Winchester FMJ/Berry's HBRN/RMR HM RN with W231/HP-38 and Promo loaded to 1.135" as my reference loads at 25/50/100 yards. While 25 yard groups were around 1"-2", 50/100 yard groups definitely opened up with obvious signs of flyers - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10184059#post10184059

As I continue my load development and accuracy testing of 9mm carbine loads at 25/50/100 yards, I will be looking at above variables along with:

- Carbine barrel leade/freebore length and using longer OAL with 124/147 gr bullets, even with 115 gr using near max load data
- Sorting of brass by resized lengths in addition to head stamp
- Checking for bullet setback

 

[LiveLife]

BTW, Atlanta Arms link has been changed to - http://atlantaarms.com/products/9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html

One thing I am pondering is Atlanta Arms 115 gr FMJ load used by the Army Marksmanship Unit and the Marine Service Pistol team is rated at 1150 fps with 1.5" shot group at 50 yards shot from a barrel fixture.

My 115 gr FMJ/HBRN/HM RN loads chronoed from 1290 fps to 1350 fps loaded to 1.135". Atlanta Arms 115 gr FMJ AMU is loaded to 1.130". Shorter 1.130" would likely further increase neck tension and I could reduce the velocity down to 1150 fps for future testing.

What do you think?

 

[spEKTre]

I suspect fliers with 9mm is due to the shortness of the cartridge and coupled with short pils ( ie: 115gr 100gr ), if the projectile is not perfectly seated parallel with the walls of the brass your using then upon ignition there is a harmonic introduced. I've seen guys new to reloading pump out bullets with the proji visibly tipped in the case and hit the ground at 10 yards, that's obviously the worse case but you get the concept. Harmonics come into play heavily @ 50 yard shooting.

 

[LiveLife]

Very good point.

Tilting of bullets, especially Winchester 115 gr FMJ with sharp bullet base edges I have used as my reference bullet, was an issue if I was less careful with flaring/bullet setting/seating and discussed in this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8030815#post8030815

This picture shows bulging of case neck on one side of the finished rounds from obvious tilting of bullets during seating.

I flare and seat bullets to have an even bulge around the case neck so when the finished rounds are rolled on bench top, bullet nose tip won't wobble and my test rounds looked like these

Since my carbine loads will be used as high volume plinking loads, I have considered using NOE powder through expander like this to perform as "M-die" - http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=91&products_id=1203

For my next range session, I am planning to load some test rounds using same headstamp and resized lengths (for more consistent neck tension/bullet seating depth) to use as control and see if shot group/pattern/flyers decrease.

Also, I am looking to better duplicate AMU load (115 gr FMJ 1.130" @ 1150 fps) along with using powders that have produced more accurate loads.

Since the leade on PSA 9mm carbine barrel is quite long to accommodate longer than SAAMI max length, I may also try longer 1.160" OAL to reduce gas leakage.

 

[LiveLife]

Well, things are getting a little murkier for my next testing.

While Atlanta Arms Elite Match grade AMU 115 gr FMJ is loaded to 1150 fps with 1.130" OAL, Select grade 115 gr TCJ (Total Copper Jacket) is loaded to 1250 fps with 1.135" OAL.

So plated bullet is loaded faster than jacketed bullet?

My test 115 gr Winchester FMJ/Berry's HBRN/RMR HM RN were loaded to 1290 - 1350 fps with 1.135" OAL and I had planned to back down on the velocity for some of the next test loads.

Since some of the plated 50/100 yard loads had smaller groups/patterns than FMJ loads, I am also pondering about slightly larger sized Berry's HBRN at .3555" and RMR HM RN at .356" sizing for gas leakage. PSA 9mm carbine has longer leade to accommodate longer than SAAMI max of 1.169". When loading for KKM/Lone Wolf barrels with longer leade/freebore, use of longer 1.160" OAL with some loads produced smaller shot groups likely from reduction in gas leakage.