Pistol loads = What causes flyers other than the shooter?"

[LiveLife]

ljnowell, really appreciate your comments. It's good to have input from match shooter who actually shot bullseye matches.

I PMed Walkalong to change the thread title to "= Pistol loads = What causes flyers other than the shooter?"

I am really hoping this thread will help some THR members finally get to the bottom of loading accurate enough loads for bullseye matches or bullseye type shooting so they can eliminate as much reloading variables as possible.

Of course, if their pistol moves or jerks the front sight when the hammer/striker is released, then that issue needs to be addressed first as it's another variable that will affect shot group size and consistency.

 

[243winxb]

If interested in Bullseye Competition, i suggest going here. http://www.bullseyepistol.com/

 

[LiveLife]

Thanks for the link.

I browsed through the link but the bulk of the information is related to the match pistol/shooting techniques and not necessarily on reloading components/practice.

So far, this is what I found related to reloading. I am assuming these are loaded using new brass?

After a considerable amount of experimenting ... most accurate load ....Les Baer Bullseye Model w/ Scope on Slide ... experiment to find a load that works best for your pistol, yet utilizes components that are affordable.

Star 185 grain swaged HP SWC ... Starline or Federal Brass ... 3.9 gr Bullseye ... Federal Large Pistol ... OAL 1.213" regardless of case length ... crimp .473" at case mouth

1.923" average 10 shot groups at 50 yd ... Flawless Feeding and Cycling (11# recoil spring)

... 9mm Service Pistol ... Beretta 92 ... 50 yds:

Starline brass ... 115 gr Hornady FMJ-RN ... 6.0 - 6.2 gr Power Pistol ... Rem #5 1/2 SP primers ... OAL 1.120" no-crimp

... barrel test fixture using Bar-Sto barrel ... groups .975" to 1.5" averaging about 1"

I am building a DIY hard rest (like the Ransom rest) as my retirement project. I guess I will add scope mounts to the project.

For those who are interested,

... 45 Service Pistol ... American Rifleman June 1993, pgs. 44-45 ... 850 +/- 30 FPS ... 200-220 WC lead OAL 1.16"

4.6-5.0 gr BE, Red or Green Dot, 700X
5.5-6.0 gr WW231
6.0-6.5 gr Unique

... 230 gr FMJ ... 850 FPS +/- 30 with OAL of 1.25" American Rifleman January 1987, pg. 66 ... Loads to Duplicate Military Ball Ammo

230 gr FMJ
4.6 gr BE
5.6 gr WW231
6.5 gr Unique

 

[ljnowell]

I would live to delve deeper into the conversation of bullseye match loads. While I wouldn't classify myself as an expert, per se, I do feel like I could contribute to the data.

I myself shoot almost only revolver. Typically. 6" M19 S&W but occasionally a 686. Most of my useful information will be built around bullseye loads in 38 special cases with 148 or 158 grain bullets.

I do occasionally shoot my Sig 1911 in police combat special bullseye matches. We have a PPC style competition and a special bullseye match in one day as part of the Illinois Police Association matches. I do have some load data and information for 45 acp in that regard too.

Most of my data for both does not use bullseye or w231 like most online data found, so it may be useful to some in that regard.

 

[LiveLife]

More from link (from the June 1997 issue of the American Rifleman) but sounds like comments are influenced by ammunition manufacturers BUT do note we are talking about "match ammunition" like the ones produced by Atlanta Arms and Ammo and not your factory "target/practice ammo" from Walmart - http://www.bullseyepistol.com/bullseye.htm

Buying factory ammunition is expensive these days, but it is no longer safe to assume that good handloads will be better ... hard work to make handloads that will equal the accuracy of today's factory match loads. ... find out what the gun will do with good factory ammunition and then perhaps try to duplicate those results with lower cost handloads.

This is as much about reloading I could find from the link (not much if you ask me) - http://www.bullseyepistol.com/equipmnt.htm

Reloading Your Centerfire Ammunition

... not necessary that you reload your own centerfire cartridges, but ... Reloading can help reduce those costs, or at least give you more ammo for the same amount of money ...

Reloading can also help you realize your gun's potential ... Reloaders can vary powder charges and change bullet seating depths and crimp diameters ...

So, what did I learn from the bullseye link about reducing flyers? Use new brass

Well, for this reloader, that's not going to happen. And I am not sure if aspiring bullseye shooting THR members would either. I think once-fired brass is as close as feasible/practical for us.

I guess I need to further revise the thread title to say, "and how to reduce flyers using mixed range brass"

OK, so other than using new brass, what can we do to reduce flyers?

 

[LiveLife]

I myself shoot almost only revolver. Typically. 6" M19 S&W but occasionally a 686. Most of my useful information will be built around bullseye loads in 38 special cases with 148 or 158 grain bullets.

Really? I wish I could buy you a drink/lunch as I am looking for 38/357 revolver to plink into retirement in another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760549

You posted "I personally think the M19 k frame is the best that S&W makes" in that thread. What's your opinion on 686 vs M19 shooting 38Spl loads? How about 4" vs 6"?

I do occasionally shoot my Sig 1911 in police combat special bullseye matches ... I do have some load data and information for 45 acp in that regard too.

Most of my data for both does not use bullseye or w231

You are speaking to a Sig 1911 fan - very interested in the load data you use.

 

[ljnowell]

Really? I wish I could buy you a drink/lunch as I am looking for 38/357 revolver to plink into retirement in another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=760549

You posted "I personally think the M19 k frame is the best that S&W makes" in that thread. What's your opinion on 686 vs M19 shooting 38Spl loads? How about 4" vs 6"?


You are speaking to a Sig 1911 fan - very interested in the load data you use.

I originally got into bullseye shooting using a 4" 686-3, a pre lock. The trigger was superb. I modified my own mainspring as opposed to buying an aftermarket(I'll leave that for another thread, but it's well worth it), changed rebound springs and polished several key items. I made it up to 260s shooting this gun with factory adjustable sights.

About that time I scored a 6" pinned and recessed model 19. I immediately made the same changes to it and, yes purists may hate me for it, had it drilled and tapped for a weaver base. I bought a pair of ultradot matchdots for them.

Either gun is amazingly accurate however I shoot the model 19 much better. The grips are the same but the geometry is much different to me. The weight difference is negligible in my opinion.

 

[LiveLife]

Thank you! Just the information I needed! I am putting used M19/686 4"/6" revolvers on my lookout list. Yes, definitely installing red dot/scope for my aging eyes.

I am guessing you did not use brand new brass.

Did you experience flyer issues and if so, what did you do to reduce them?

 

[LiveLife]

It must be the summer heat damage to the brain.

You covered my last question in your post #8 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9605832#post9605832

When I first started loading rounds for bullseye practice I used mixed cases and DEWC crimped into the crimp groove. I found out early in my endeavor that roll crimping a light round such as that degraded accuracy. Not by a little, but a lot(at least by bullseye standards where 1/2" is a mile). I started seating the forward driving band halfway in the case and just smoothing out the flare.

Forever seeking accuracy I started using cases that were from the same lot. Not just headstamps, but the same box. Shooting at Olin range allowed me to get several thousand cases from the same lot of production match ammo. These cases are as close as it gets.

When I did this my fliers all but disappeared. In fact, the common belief is that HBWCS are always more accurate than DEWC. I know for a fact that my load will outshoot the Winchester 38HBWC Match load that they sell for a premium. I've tested this multiple times in different guns.

Another thing that made a difference, albeit a small difference but measurable, was paying attention to how the bullets are seated in the case. I always ensure that the spruce if facing out of the case. This way the perfectly flat base is provided for the gases to push against. Some people call BS on that, but it isn't so. My DEWC loads with Missouri Bullet PPC#2 will shoot good enough for my to be a 285 shooter on the. 300pt National Match Course.

Now, for bullseye practice ammo? It's mixed cases, etc. no worries.

 

[LiveLife]

OK, thanks to Walkalong, the thread's title got changed to "Pistol loads = What causes flyers other than the shooter?"

This thread discussion is for pistol loads.

So let's restart the premise of the thread discussion that a relatively competent shooter exercising consistent trigger control with a semi-auto pistol that has "broken in" or good trigger that when the hammer/striker is released, the front sight does not move or jump (BTW, my Sig 1911/Glocks do not move the front sight when the hammer/striker is released).

Now with these new premise, what factors cause flyers?

Good post. People always blame the Indian when sometime it's the arrow. Seasoned bullseye shooters know when they made a mistake. The second the trigger breaks we know we screwed up before we even look closely at the target.

Simply blaming it on the shooter isn't good enough in bullseye shooting. Small variables matter.

With the premise of the thread changed to factor out human error, we have this from you regarding revolver loads that reduced flyers.

using cases that were from the same lot. Not just headstamps, but the same box ... When I did this my fliers all but disappeared

Another thing that made a difference, ... measurable, was paying attention to how the bullets are seated in the case ... perfectly flat base is provided for the gases to push against.

So based on ljnowell's experience (and let's say his target score was objective data reflecting reduction of flyers), it looks like consistency in brass was a major factor in reducing flyers. Since how the bullets were seated in the case and the surface high pressure gas pushed against made a measurable difference, I am thinking both contributed for more consistent chamber pressures.

Why you get flyers = mixed range brass.

Looks that way.


Applying these factors to semi-auto pistols, I am thinking the following:

- Using mixed range brass, even "supposedly" once-fired police range brass and sorted by same headstamp, may not ensure consistency of brass condition to result in consistent chamber pressures as once-fired police range brass may contain multiple lots of brass depending on how long brass was collected and when they were sold.

- Same box verified once-fired brass may be the closes we could get to new brass of same lot unless police range brass could be verified to have shot the same lot ammunition (this I doubt we could ever verify).

- So if you are using mixed range brass with unknown reload history, there is an inherent variable of brass condition that will affect chamber pressures and certain amount/degrees of flyers is to be expected.

- Flat/flatter base bullets may produce more consistent chamber pressures than bevel/rounded base bullets.

- Unlike a revolver, if a semi-auto pistol with cycling slide that slams the bullet nose on the barrel ramp during feeding, seats the bullet base deeper in the case neck (bullet setback) from variations in brass condition/neck tension, this will affect chamber pressures and increase the amount and degree of flyers. What matters is the final OAL/bullet seating depth the chambered round ends up prior to powder ignition and not what the round starts out with.

To decrease flyers with semi-auto pistols using mixed range brass, decreasing bullet setback may be the biggest contributing factor in reducing flyers.

So, how do we reduce/eliminate bullet setback?

 

[murf]

reduce the diameter of your expander plug.

murf

 

[Potatohead]

If ever a flyer were to not be one's own fault, Ive always felt like the crimp would be a good place to start looking for the problem. I'm pretty much in the "it's probably the shooter" camp though.

Agreed. I've got to stop going to the range after that fifth cup of strong coffee .............

You're right, to much coffee will really mess up a range day. You need just your normal amount according to some.

I know my concentration level wanes after a couple of groups at the range.

+1

 

[1066]

I spent a good few years shooting UIT European international pistol matches. These matches were pure "bullseye" type matches. All shooting was at 25 yards, one hand, unsupported with only standard open sights. 2.5lb trigger.

The centrefire match consisted of 6 series of 5 shots on a standard bullseye target followed by "duelling", 6 series of 5 shots on turning targets, one shot on each 3 second exposure. Total match score 300,300 = 600

When I started in the 1970's I used a S&W K38 Mod 14 (Target hammer, trigger, single action only) with custom hand fitting grips.

When testing loads for accuracy I shot a good deal with a Ransom rest and a chrony, also from sandbags.

My most consistent load was 3.6 grains of Bullseye with 148gn HBWC. the bullet standing out from the case about 1/4 inch and a light roll crimp.

With carefully loaded ammunition there were never any flyers and all shots grouping within the size of the target bull.

After around 20 shots the groups opened slightly which after investigation I found to be a slight build up of carbon/lead in the forcing cone.

I knew that any flyers were down to me and me alone.

At that time the larger calibre pistols and wheel guns were becoming uncompetitive, with just the odd S&W Mod 52 and Sig/Hammerli 240 hanging on, most serious shooters changing to .32 S&W Long. These were specialist pure target pistols made by Walther/Sig/ Hammerli/Fas/Pardini, semi-auto pistols with a 5 shot mag in front of the trigger and would only except the full wadcutter bullet, seated flush with the case. Fixed barrel, straight blowback design.

Again, careful reloading with a 90 grain swaged/sized to .313 Full wadcutter seated just below the mouth of the case with a slight taper crimp and 1.6 grains of Bullseye, hand weighed resulted in reliable operation with no flyers.

So - quality ammunition that suits the pistol carefully put together and tested.

Shoot some good quality factory ammunition as quality control - do you still get flyers - Yes, then possible pistol/technique problem. No - ammunition problem.

 

[Potatohead]

I use very light neck tension

This might be a dumb question, Im probably a little out of my league on this thread but how do you control neck tension?

 

[Potatohead]

Seasoned bullseye shooters know when they made a mistake. The second the trigger breaks we know we screwed up before we even look closely at the target.

I don't think you have to be a seasoned BE shooter to know this. (I'm not trying to start a beef, just wanted to mention.)

Interesting thread.

On the "new brass" idea, I just ordered my first ever big batch of Starline 9mm cases, so I look forward to experimenting a bit.

BDS, would you like to have some of them when they get here, so you can post some results?

 

[Sport45]

My flyers are usually the result of nerves after putting the first shots too close together.
Sometimes I can be cutting a cloverleaf in the middle of the target and then have the last one barely stay on paper.

 

[ljnowell]

This might be a dumb question, Im probably a little out of my league on this thread but how do you control neck tension?

By turning down your expander plug. When you flare the brass it will expand it less giving you more case neck tension.

I don't think you have to be a seasoned BE shooter to know this. (I'm not trying to start a beef, just wanted to mention.)



Interesting thread.



On the "new brass" idea, I just ordered my first ever big batch of Starline 9mm cases, so I look forward to experimenting a bit.



BDS, would you like to have some of them when they get here, so you can post some results?

As far as knowing the mistake on the break, we aren't talking about a shot two or three inches off a group. In the case of bullseye accuracy a flyer can be a single shot 1 inch of the group. That's enough to screw an entire target. In many cases you will know it before the round goes off, your brain just can't tell your fingers to stop quick enough.

When you shoot an accuracy sport like bullseye long enough you start to get in a tunnel vision zone at times. When the target turns and it feels like everything slows down and everything lines up perfectly and you just can't miss. It's a great feeling. But everything has to be perfect for that to happen, including the ammo, hence this thread

 

[Potatohead]

Right on.

 

[243winxb]

Pistol Bullet Accuracy

45 acp- Cast bullets cause flyers. I dont care how good a caster you think you are. Sorry. It only takes 1 little air bubble to make the bullet hit outside the 10 ring at 50 yards. When i work up a load using cast, each bullet is put on the scale to check the weight, before lube & sizing. The high and low ones are for practice. The middle average weight ones get used for working up the load. The 200 gr lswc bevel base has been the most accurate for me. The base of the bullet is not deformed when it leaves the barrel, like flat base bullets. This is where a hard alloy is more accurate, the bullet is deformed less. The top shooters i have shot next too (Bullseye) do not use cast bullets. They use factory jacketed match ammo and dont pick up the brass. Like 1066 posted, i also shot ISU (now called UIT) using a M28 S&W with 38 wad cutter using Bullseye powder and swaged bullets that are more accurate than cast. The dueling phase is fun. I have also competed in Free Pistol, Rapid Fire Pistol, Standard pistol, along with Bullseye in the 70's and 80's. A 2700 Bullseye competition becomes hard work after awhile. Check out the top shooters scores. Then check the targets used shooting standing 1 handed. Give it a try. http://compete.nra.org/championship-results/nra-national-outdoor-rifle-pistol-championships-results.aspx

 

[rodregier]

IMHO the accuracy of handloaded pistol ammunition is primarily a function of the quality of the projectile and how little it is distorted by the handloading process.
This is based on the assumption of "reasonable" handloading practices that don't result in a lot of velocity variance. It is critical that the jump from the case to the barrel throat be minimized, especially if you are using cast or swaged projectiles. Of course, there are a number of other "launching platform" (firearm) accuracy variables too.

I'm currently using the 125g HAP projectiles in 9mmx19, they're a beautiful thing.

http://www.hornady.com/store/HAP-Hornady-Action-Pistol

Here is the kind of accuracy guarantee a custom ammunition manufacturer is stating for the same projectile:

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/9mm-Bill-Wilson-Signature-Match-125-gr-Hornady-HAP-1075-FPS-5-Barrel-100_Box/productinfo/A9-125-HAP/

"The Signature Jacketed Match 9mm load has been extensively tested in 1911 style and other high-performance firearms and is the most accurate 125 grain 9mm ammunition available. We guarantee the Bill Wilson Signature Jacketed Match to shoot 25 yard, ten-shot groups through a fixed barrel testing device of under ONE-HALF (1/2) INCH-GUARANTEED."

 

[murf]

potatohead,

you control neck tension by controlling case wall thickness.

murf

 

[Schwing]

45 acp- Cast bullets cause flyers. I dont care how good a caster you think you are. Sorry. It only takes 1 little air bubble to make the bullet hit outside the 10 ring at 50 yards. When i work up a load using cast, each bullet is put on the scale to check the weight, before lube & sizing. The high and low ones are for practice. The middle average weight ones get used for working up the load. The 200 gr lswc bevel base has been the most accurate for me. The base of the bullet is not deformed when it leaves the barrel, like flat base bullets. This is where a hard alloy is more accurate, the bullet is deformed less. The top shooters i have shot next too (Bullseye) do not use cast bullets. They use factory jacketed match ammo and dont pick up the brass. Like 1066 posted, i also shot ISU (now called UIT) using a M28 S&W with 38 wad cutter using Bullseye powder and swaged bullets that are more accurate than cast. The dueling phase is fun. I have also competed in Free Pistol, Rapid Fire Pistol, Standard pistol, along with Bullseye in the 70's and 80's. A 2700 Bullseye competition becomes hard work after awhile. Check out the top shooters scores. Then check the targets used shooting standing 1 handed. Give it a try. http://compete.nra.org/championship-results/nra-national-outdoor-rifle-pistol-championships-results.aspx

I agree with this. I must admit, however, that my personal shooting accuracy isn't good enough to notice unless I am shooting from a rest. Because of this, I rarely weigh my cast bullets.

Another issue is casting at different temps can cause minor variations in bullet diameter as well as weight. If you DON'T size your bullets, you might never know that you have an issue. Occasionally, I will find one that doesn't have any resistance passing through the sizer. Those go in the recast pile.

We cast our bullets .001 to .002 over bore size for good reason. If they are smaller than your barrel, they will absolutely be flyers.

 

[Potatohead]

Thanks murf.

 

[LiveLife]

Wow, good morning! Coming back from Sunday brunch to see meaningful discussion in progress.

I really appreciate the input from those who actually have competed in bullseye matches as first hand experience of what worked and what did not speaks directly to what we are trying to identify on this thread. Will take me some time to process all the good information posted.

 

[1SOW]

I've shot Bullseye, but only with .22 rimfire a loooong time ago.

I need to add that to test ammunition and pistol, a Ransom rest is necessary to eliminate the shooter. With this you could test ammo compared to optimuym accuracy with the pistol. The .45 forum illustrates thes this comp[aring high end 45 pistols for best loads.