Plainclothes officer shot by uniformed cop

Status
Not open for further replies.

Preacherman

Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2002
Messages
13,306
Location
Louisiana, USA
Another tragedy . . .

From Hampton Roads ( http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=104817&ran=86692&tref=po ):

Norfolk police officer shot and killed by another officer, sources say

By MATTHEW ROY AND MATTHEW JONES, The Virginian-Pilot
© May 22, 2006 | Last updated 11:47 PM May. 22

NORFOLK — In an unusual move, Virginia State Police have been called in to investigate a shooting in which a police officer fatally wounded a colleague Sunday night during a fast-moving and chaotic chain of events at a public housing complex.

Seneca Darden, 25, , who had been on the force for four years and was with the 3rd Precinct, died after being shot multiple times. He was married, had a 5-year-old daughter and lived in Portsmouth.

The department did not release the identity of the officer who shot Darden, but multiple sources identified him as Gordon Barry, a canine officer. Police said the officer was placed on administrative leave while the case is investigated.

Darden was the nephew of Shelton L. Darden, who retired last year after rising through the police ranks. He served as interim chief prior to the hiring of the current chief, Bruce P. Marquis.

Witnesses said that Seneca Darden was shot during a chaotic disturbance in the courtyard of Young Terrace, a public housing complex near Virginia Beach Boulevard. They said he had a weapon drawn and was in jeans and a T-shirt. He had been working a burglary detail in another part of the city before arriving at Young Terrace.

Darden was with several uniformed officers who were trying to control a crowd after a shooting that had occurred there earlier Sunday night. Many people were yelling as Darden was shot, witnesses said, and police were using pepper spray.

Marquis and police brass, somber and weary after being up all night, held a news conference at noon Monday.

Marquis gave this account:

Late Sunday, officers responded to the 500 block of Nicholson St. on a reported shooting. They found a man who had been shot, and he was taken to Sentara Norfolk General Hospital, where he remained Monday.

Meanwhile, a suspect was located a short while later on Virginia Beach Boulevard and was taken into custody. Officers recovered two handguns from Milton Green, 50, and later charged him with malicious wounding and a weapons offense, said Officer Chris Amos, police spokesman.

Officers still at the Norfolk housing complex were told about a second gunshot victim inside a home in the 400 block of Nicholson St. The officers at that scene reported a “large crowd” in the courtyard there and requested back up.

Five uniformed officers responded. One of the officers saw a man in the crowd in a white T-shirt and blue jeans, holding a handgun. That person turned out to be Seneca Darden. An officer commanded him to drop the gun. The officer then fired at Darden, who was hit “multiple times.”

Darden was pronounced dead a short while later at Sentara Norfolk General Hospital.

Amos said the other shooting victim at that address was eventually found and had superficial wounds.

Witnesses interviewed Monday described the scene much as the police.

It all started at about 11:20 p.m., when Rahmel Humbert was shot while riding a bicycle in the 500 block of Nicholson St. on the way to a store nearby, several residents said.

Humbert, 24, lives in Virginia Beach and often visits relatives in Young Terrace after his cooking job at the nearby Radisson, said his aunt, Linda Humbert.

She heard about the shooting from her daughter, who called Humbert at work. Humbert found them loading her nephew into an ambulance. She returned to her home in the 400 block of Nicholson St . People gathered outside, asking about her nephew.

There also were rumors the shooter was nearby, and the courtyard soon filled with dozens of people trading bits of information, according to Humbert and several other witnesses.

Marq Lyles, Humbert’s next-door neighbor, watched the rest unfold from his front porch. Chaos ensued, he said, with police yelling at people to get on the ground and using pepper spray.

Lyles, 18, said Darden was standing on the sidewalk leading to his apartment, wearing a white T-shirt and baggy blue jeans. His gun was drawn and he was ordering a man to the ground.

Two uniformed officers were with Darden, Lyles said – one facing Darden across Lyles’ front yard and one to Darden’s left. The officers had their guns drawn as well and were yelling at the same man.

Lyles said an officer with a police dog then approached Darden from behind and shot him multiple times. He pointed to indicate a distance, roughly 10 feet.

Lyles said the courtyard was well lit from lights on front porches and on the apartment walls overhead.

After the shooting, police were everywhere, Lyles said. Some tried to perform CPR on Darden while others sent out an “officer down” alert on their radios.

Humbert said she saw Darden before the shooting as well. As she walked along the courtyard’s sidewalk, heading to her car to visit her nephew in the hospital, she passed Darden and several uniformed officers going the other way.

As she rounded the corner, Humbert heard gunshots. She ducked behind a building and spoke by cell phone with her frightened teenage daughter, who was still in their apartment. By the time she made it back around, Darden was lying on his back on the sidewalk leading to her apartment, she said.

Darden’s body has been turned over to the medical examiner’s office.

At a news conference, his voice nearly breaking at times, Marquis expressed sympathy to Darden’s loved ones.

“I do … wish to extend my heartfelt sympathies to the family and friends of Officer Seneca Darden,” he said. “I would ask that we all keep this family in our thoughts and prayers as they deal with Seneca’s tragic death.”

Answering questions from reporters, Marquis said Darden had been working in plain clothes on a burglary detail in another part of the city. Asked why he was in that area, Marquis said, “That’s something we’re looking at internally.”

Marquis said he had briefed Commonwealth’s Attorney Jack Doyle and Cassandra M. Chandler, the special agent in charge of the FBI in Norfolk, on the shooting.

Marquis was asked if the officer who fired ever warned Darden to drop his weapon. “It is initially my understanding that he did that several times,” he said.

At the news conference, Doyle said he wi ll review the case after the state police investigation. In recent months, Doyle has found that several police shootings of suspects were justified. In one case still not resolved, he asked for a special prosecutor to handle the review.

“An officer has a duty to use deadly force in order to protect the officer’s life or the life of others from imminent harm,” Doyle said. Officers have to make an on-the-spot decision, he said.

“We’ll be looking at all the facts and circumstances of this case … and making a legal analysis of the officer’s actions,” he said.

Harry Twiford, the president of the local Fraternal Order of Police lodge, said the incident was tragic. “It’s something that’s beyond words,” he said. “The members of the department are going to have to bind together and not let this divide the department.”

Darden’s death comes on the heels of a ceremony last week marking those killed in the line of duty on the force. The ceremony recalled the killing last fall of Officer Stanley C. Reaves, 33, of Chesapeake.

Reaves was shot as he checked on a suspicious person in Park Place. Four days later, police arrested Thomas Alexander Porter, 30, in White Plains, N.Y., at the home of an ex-girlfriend, and charged him with killing Reaves. Porter is awaiting trial.

Meanwhile, Rahmel Humbert, having been shot twice in the stomach, was in stable condition Monday at Sentara Norfolk General Hospital, his aunt said .

When Linda Humbert was visiting her nephew at the hospital Sunday night, she ha d run into Darden’s family.

Having seen Darden stretched out on the pavement outside her front door, she knew the outcome. All she could do was hug them, she said.

“There’s nothing you can say.”

Monday morning, a Young Terrace maintenance man marked the spot where Darden was shot with a half dozen red roses.
 
So the plainclothes officer was standing with two uniformed officers, all with their guns drawn ordering the suspect to the ground and the K9 officer comes up from behind and shoots plainclothes officer in the back multiple times? :(
 
From the sounds of it, all hell was breaking loose when this happened. I can't imagine how the offending officer must feel.

My condolences to office Darden and his family, as well as the officer who shot him.

They will be in our prayers.
 
My prayers are with the relatives of officer Dresden but....

I sure hope we will eventually find out what really happened here....

As DoubleTap clearly mentions... the plainclothes officer was standing with two uniformed officers, all with their guns drawn ordering the suspect to the ground and the other officer comes up from behind and shoots plainclothes officer in the back multiple times... Should be pretty straight forward once the autopsy reports is out, but even if it was a BG... shooting from the back????

Stay safe,

Juan Carlos
 
Unfortunately, during the chaos and commotion of such events, these things happen. Even if he had been given commands to drop his gun, it is certainly possible he could not have heard them, or thought they were intended for the man he was apprehending.


We could learn lessons from this terrible event.


We can learn that our appearance matters, and that it might be the only thing that communicates to first responders we are not part of the problem. I would not be suprised to find out Darden didn't even realize in the confusion that the officer who shot him was even focused on him.

Another is the tendancy for current training regimens to teach: see gun, issue commands, and shoot. Usually I see in actual application it gets compressed into see gun, shoot.

We are training to shoot each other.
 
Can we ban guns now?

Can we ban guns now? Even from police officers who have undergone extensive training? I mean, c'mon... if even police officers who have undergone extensive training with firearms can have accidental shootings, how about private citizens?

... I should run for the Brady Campaign to Stop Gun Violence... :evil:
 
don't know the officers positions or what was said/heard etc. impossible to pass accurate judgement from that article. and that is assuming the article is correct in the information it did provide. :scrutiny:
----------------
"a public housing complex"

hmmmmm............ lets ban those instead
 
I can't help but think that the the anti-gun lobby's way of inducing people to have such fear of guns helps to fuel incidents like this. When some people see a gun the have be conditioned such that all they see is danger. In cases when these people are armed cops their response to "gun=danger" is often to shoot first and ask questions later. Officers need to wait until they can determine the bearer of a gun as a bonafide threat before gunning the person down.
 
Darden was standing on the sidewalk leading to his apartment, wearing a white T-shirt and baggy blue jeans. His gun was drawn and he was ordering a man to the ground.

Two uniformed officers were with Darden, Lyles said – one facing Darden across Lyles’ front yard and one to Darden’s left. The officers had their guns drawn as well and were yelling at the same man.

Lyles said an officer with a police dog then approached Darden from behind and shot him multiple times. He pointed to indicate a distance, roughly 10 feet.

From that description, it's completely possibly that the K-9 officer thought the other two officers were confronting a "man with a gun" (the plaincloths officer).
 
Perhaps the problem is with the "see gun, issue commands, and shoot" mentality. Has "issuing commands" simply become a formality, similar to the "Police, open the door" stage of the No-Knock Raid. Are LEOs being trained properly to judge the situation and suspect for compliance to commands? Are they jumping the gun, so to speak?

It seems that a basic analysis of the situation by the K9 officer should have prevented the incident, with an officer on either side of Darden. Why did the K9 officer fire? Did he believe that the other officers were not in control of the situation and that he had a clean shot? Why would he make such an assumption; if he was new to the scene, he obviously did not have a complete grasp of the situation, but the other officers would have? Who would be in charge of the situation? Why didn't he wait for compliance to commands? If a K9 officer has a police dog, would it be incorrect to assume that the K9 officer could have directed the dog to incapacitate Darden? Shooting a man in the back seems a little extreme for the situation.

Also, it seems strange to me that we would expect instant compliance to commands from police when we live in a society where we don't really expect anybody to immediately comply with commands from anybody. This might be different in military and police circles, but most Americans are actually reluctant to blindly obey anybody. Absolute obedience to authority is not necessarily an American ideal.
 
Perhaps the problem is with the "see gun, issue commands, and shoot" mentality. Has "issuing commands" simply become a formality, similar to the "Police, open the door" stage of the No-Knock Raid. Are LEOs being trained properly to judge the situation and suspect for compliance to commands? Are they jumping the gun, so to speak?

...

Also, it seems strange to me that we would expect instant compliance to commands from police when we live in a society where we don't really expect anybody to immediately comply with commands from anybody. This might be different in military and police circles, but most Americans are actually reluctant to blindly obey anybody. Absolute obedience to authority is not necessarily an American ideal.
Isn't it fortunate that we don't live in a police state?

IMHO the fault lies with the academies. They teach LEOs "command presence," and they indoctinate trainees and rookies that anything less than instantaneous compliance to their commands is resistance, to be countered by yelling louder and "asserting command presence." The real danger, of course, is precisely the substitution of an expectation of instantaneous compliance in lieu of a more realistic expectation that people require time to hear, process, assess, and only THEN act on unexpected commands. ESPECIALLY if they are NOT perpetrators and therefore have less than zero reason to expect that a cop is going to be yelling orders at them.
 
Whenever I read "All hell broke loose", then I know the eye-witness accounts won't be accurate. If you were paying attention to what was happening around you instead of guarding your life, you would be dead.

I just know two things;

horrible tragedy,

Both families involved must be devistated..

My prayers...
 
Grey54956 said:
...most Americans are actually reluctant to blindly obey anybody. Absolute obedience to authority is not necessarily an American ideal.
Quaamik said:
...it's completely possibly that the K-9 officer thought the other two officers were confronting a "man with a gun" (the plaincloths officer).
Unfortunately, these two quotes get right to the heart of the situation.
 
Perhaps the problem is with the "see gun, issue commands, and shoot" mentality
While I agree with this sentiment, I don't think that's what happened. The uniformed officer saw a "man with a gun." It was drawn. He was pointing it. Maybe he had his finger on the trigger. People are yelling and screaming. Uniformed officers have drawn in the direction of the "man with a gun." Somebody has already left on a stretcher tonight. Word is that somebody else is about to. Dispatch hasn't gotten to Officer Barry to tell him that Officer Darden is there. Officer Darden's badge isn't visible. He only appears to be a "man with a gun."

...And then the tunnel vision sets in. Everyone else fades into the background. Officer Barry can't see anything but the "man with a gun." His hearing goes. Nothing but a loud whooshing sound as he has to make that fatal decision.

*BANG*

Or I could be completely wrong. Maybe we're missing a critical fact. Hopefully everything will come out in the investigation. As it was written, however, the story indicates that Officer Barry made an honest mistake. An exceptionally tragic mistake, one that cost the life of a fellow officer, but a mistake that anyone could have easily made. Even when everybody on your team is wearing the same uniform, it's hard to tell sometimes.
 
I hate to specutale about things like this, but two words come to my mind when I read the story.

"Trigger" and "happy"

-Dev
 
Is it just me or did things like this not happen years ago.

Well first of all, how many gun forums did you subscribe to "years ago". I'm sure there were plenty of these cases that you just didnt get wind of.

Secondly, there's alot more LEO's these days. When the population goes up, so do the statistics, all of them.

-Dev
 
First, my condolences and prayers to the family of the fallen.

Secondly, we shouldn't be "Armchair Quarterbacking" this event based off of a single-source (The Virginian-Pilot Newspaper) initial report. I'm not calling into question the veracity or reliability of the paper, but simply stating more information is needed for better analysis.

Mike
 
I hate to specutale about things like this, but two words come to my mind when I read the story.

"Trigger" and "happy"

Just from the reading of the story alone, I would have to add "idiot" to that list... but that might be "jumping the gun," as well...
 
It's getting to the point where you just have to take cover and let the cops shoot each other while you escape. Is it just me or did things like this not happen years ago.

It's just you. It's certainly nothing new.

The way they're describing it, it's hard to see what happened, because their descriptions don't tell us what we need to know. OK, there were two uniformed officers with Officer Darden. Could the K9 guy see these officers clearly from where he was? If he could see them, could he tell that Darden wasn't a threat to them? I'm sure they weren't looking at Darden, but if one of the officers was across from Darden, it could easily have looked like Darden was intent on that officer--which the average cop would probably read as a threat from a man with a pistol in hand.
Yes, IF he issued the command to drop the gun, that's important, but as someone else said, there were at least three officers there already yelling at a suspect. Darden may only have heard "DROP THE GUN!" Or he may not have heard at all. We can't know.
On the other hand, maybe the K9 officer should have waited longer. Since we don't know how long he waited, we don't know this, either. Maybe he didn't wait at all. That was the wrong choice in retrospect, but at the time and on the scene, he may have believed that he was the only one who saw the "threat" and that another officer was about to get perforated if he didn't fire immediately to stop it.

We do not know.


The one thing I can say for certain, I think, is that it's stupid for people to crowd around the scene of a shooting and gossip about it while the police are trying to do their job and apprehend suspects so it doesn't happen all over again. Jeez. :rolleyes:
Some people's kids are raised dumb.
 
Do not take this as an indictment of the plainclothes officer for his own death.

However this is classic example of where a raid jacket or vest would probably have saved a life.
My self I think that every plainclothes officer should be issued and carry a light weight high visibility vest (like used for traffic control) clearly marked POLICE and wear it when responding to any in progress call as a minimum.

I agree with the post above that training and adrenaline are combining to run the challenge and the shot closer together.
 
SRYnidan said: However this is classic example of where a raid jacket or vest would probably have saved a life. My self I think that every plainclothes officer should be issued and carry a light weight high visibility vest (like used for traffic control) clearly marked POLICE and wear it when responding to any in progress call as a minimum.

And what are the rest of us who carry a firearm on our person for our own protection to do?

Raid jackets and high visibility vests are just another band-aid to cover a problem. His appearance mattered; it likely contributed to him getting shot. If we train to the standard - all people now not in uniform, AND wearing a orange vest, and who have a gun are considered threats . . . Then what shall we do the next time an officer gets shot who didn't have his vest, or time to put it on?


Schools and acadamies are teaching non-value and non-judgement based decision making. We arm our shoot IDPA targets, and don't arm the non-shoots. Same with other training models. Gun = shoot. Gun + in uniform, or visible credentials = don't shoot.

With the increase in carry permits, I really thought I'd see the trend reverse. But, I guess with the schools employing instructors having police resumes, its not an unexpected consequence.


We are training to shoot each other.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top