Please Don't Save My Child T-shirts

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GEM

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Some folks have given out cards that they won't patronize a business that bans CHLs or CCW.

If laws are passed that allow teachers to carry - I want those posters here who are against teachers carrying because:

1. They don't have the level of skill of said internet commando
2. They are socialists

to outfit their kid in such a t-shirt. Thus, if the bad thing happens, the teacher will not waste effort on saving this kid.

It's very simple. You are with the RKBA or against it. Sorry, Miss Funkyheim give you a D in elementary school and you are still traumatized by it. :cuss:
 
I understand there was a thread about teachers and concealed carry, but I did not read too far into it because I didn't want to waste energy on it.

At first I thought you were baiting or inciting a riot, but I looked at your post count and thought otherwise.

But, really, if there was a shooter in a crowd of soft targets, would you care whether the targets were pro 2A or anti? I wouldn't. I would hope my training sufficed and I stopped the threat.
 
First of all, where I live, it is legal to carry on school grounds, I do it all the time. When I go to a ball game or pick up my kids, I am carrying. Growing up, not only did I have good examples of firearms handling at my school, some of them taught hunters' safety courses after hours. Many of the same were one flavor or another of reserve soldier or cop.

The teachers who would WANT to carry would be perfectly competent to do so.

The problem is the beaurocracy. The principal, the district, the state union and the NEA. As demonstrated recently in Oregon by the case of the teacher who was having domestic problems, and was entirely within the law to carry, but the district fired her, for violating an employee policy which was in conflict with the law.

Also, I have found that when I am doing certain activities, (For example, I play in a band from time to time,) I don't allow enough concentration to both concentrate on what I am doing, AND keep good enough situational awareness to carry at the same time. Not ALL of my teachers were that good, but some of them were. I couldn't see them doing their job well, and keeping a tactical mindset at the same time. (This could be true for many professions.)
 
If it were only this simple

It's very simple. You are with the RKBA or against it.
Click to expand...
with broad statements like this things are not so easy. Would you suport a violent criminal with multiple violations carring and owning a gun? I would not. in fact I dont. But I am in favor of RKBA. Infact I think its great if it were legal for teachers to carry some places it is but most plases it is not. As long as it is not legal I can not openly suport it. I would also expect that said teacher would be willing to demonstrate their ability to be safe and responsible with their fire are to the students parents.

In short Bianary statements are of little value as there are exceptions to every rule.
 
It may catch a lot of flak, but GEM's post follows strict logic which can demonstrate how ridiculous some laws and rules can be. For example, people who have complete disdain for LEO's should NOT call 911 on their cell if they are pinned down in their car with 15 gangbangers trying to get at them. That would be sorta hypocritical...as would disagreeing with the logic in the content of the post.
 
Being an educator, I am driven to fury by many of the responses by internet commandos who would deprive educators of the right to defend themselves and their charges.

In one case, the shooter came into a classroom and ordered the males to leave and then shot the women. I am a male, thus I would happily comply with that order or engage in a suicide charge and see 15 young women in my typical class killed.

In another case, said monster ordered out the males and barricaded the doors in a high school. He then proceeded to molest the teenagers until the police arrive. At that time he killed some before being taken down. I am a male and thus would have to comply and let some of the women in my class be molsted as I shouldn't carry.

In a third case, a monster came into a class with preadolescents girls with KY Jelly to rape them after he barricaded the room. Teachers had to leave. One little girl volunteered to be shot first to give the other kids more time. Some internet commandos suggested the 8 years were sheeple because they didn't charge him with their Bugs Bunny lunchbooks whirling like numchuks.

At VT, an elderly teacher held the door shut with his body and died with shots fired through the door as he let his kids flee. He shouldn't have had the chance to fight back effectively.

Now, let me think:

1. If told to leave so women and girls are raped and murdered, I should as deprived of effective self-defense.
2. I should use my body as a shield for your kid because you won't let me have an effective means of self-defense.
3. I'm relatively strong, maybe instead of throwing my copy of Howell's Psychological Statistics book at the monster, I hurtle a kid at him as a human shield or impact weapon. Their death is for the greater good of preventing a socialist teacher without internet commando ninja skills from being able to effectively protect themselves.

That's why I'm so angry. Once again, every tactical objection made is just as relevant to church or mall carry.

How many of you are in total situational awareness while praying? But wait, some person actually did stop a church shooting. How did that happen?

Also, when you comment on training - please state your level of training and whether you think that the average CHL/CCW must be fully and tactically trained before carrying outside the house.

I thank those who saw my logic. I've tried to make the case for self-defense where I work and run into folks who are clearly anti. It is amazing to see so many on the gun fora that are no different from those 'so-called liberals'.

Liberals don't want gun carry. So please support that point of view for all teachers. By the way, it isn't true for all 'liberals'.
 
It may catch a lot of flak, but GEM's post follows strict logic which can demonstrate how ridiculous some laws and rules can be. For example, people who have complete disdain for LEO's should NOT call 911 on their cell if they are pinned down in their car with 15 gangbangers trying to get at them. That would be sorta hypocritical...as would disagreeing with the logic in the content of the post.
Click to expand...

Well that's because it's a lot easier to espouse ideals than to actually live by them. Those who hate cops and those who hate guns still call on cops with guns when the world get to rough for them alone to handle.
 
Quote:
Would you suport a violent criminal with multiple violations carring and owning a gun?

If the individual can not be trusted with a firearm, what are they doing out unsupervised in public?
Click to expand...

They are running about the public because of the current legal system. Simply asking the question does not void their existance or answer the question of "Would you suport a violent criminal with multiple violations carring and owning a gun?" I suspect that most folks would not.

This is why broad statements of
It's very simple. You are with the RKBA or against it
Click to expand...
are just unanswerable. in this case most folks would be labled against RKBA because most folks would not suport repeat violent criminals having guns. A or B statements just dont work for most subjects.
 
If everyone stood up for the RKBA we wouldn't be having this discussion. I look at it the way it goes in Israel, guy busts in to shoot up the place. Is downed by a packing student. End of problem. Elimination of GFZs would only make us safer.
 
in case anyone misunderstood my post in the other thread about this subject, my point was more that teachers won't be able to carry. school districts wouldn't be willing to risk the greater potential for lawsuits for the smaller chance to be able to save some kid's life (in K-12).
 
+1 John 828

Swift535,
I don't think anyone misunderstood your post... it's that for a lot of people here thumping their chests about how righteous they are, degrading a broad group of people (you see a lot of that here from teachers to cops), and winning imaginary points in a personal back-and-forth argument are much more important than actually having listening to anybody.

You can beat a pig in a wrestling match but in the end all you did was wrestle a pig and end up covered in mud and crap. I'm skipping this tournament, thanks.
 
GEM said:
It's very simple. You are with the RKBA or against it. Sorry, Miss Funkyheim give you a D in elementary school and you are still traumatized by it.
Click to expand...
It sounds like the person traumatized was elsewhere.

The "school grounds" are distinctly different than other portions of "the street". The street has no requirement for participation, the school does. The street operates much like Darwin in action, the school doesn't. The school has a much larger percentage of "brain dead" (at least that's the way the students act). The street chews up and spits out those that do not follow the "laws" of the street, the school must accept the students unless they become a significant threat to other students.

In light of the above, how do you propose these teachers carry? Of the teachers I know (over half of which are BLATANTLY anti-gun) most do not dress in a manner that would facilitate concealed carry. Would you have them carry openly, to be the first one shot if the BG comes in?

Being an educator, I am driven to fury by many of the responses by internet commandos who would deprive educators of the right to defend themselves and their charges.
Click to expand...
The self defense by teachers does not bother me. I do question you taking a position that you are there to defend the students against all threats. There are many items being taught in our schools that frighten me more than the random school shooting. Specifically the disregard for the second amendment that is being taught in many of our schools. Would you have us believe that to correct the inaccuracies about the second amendment we do that by having teachers NOW openly carry firearms in school? Somehow I seriously doubt you would have much support amongst the school faculties throughout the United States for open carry by teachers.

YES, I've read about teachers that had a gun on campus and were successful in minimizing harm to students. I applaud their efforts! I am, however, dismayed by your "my way or the highway" approach to a very complex issue.
 
Wow - Straw Man Alert, Pat-inCO.
Click to expand...
Sorry if I came across that way.

My intent was to find something that I could address (albeit, by your thinking, I did it improperly) that would provide me some insight to what the OP was going on about. What I can find in his statements is that he is quite upset that anyone would question a teacher carrying. From what I can see, you can pick - any - subject and if you have ten people post an opinion, there will be at least nine different approaches.

I agree that teachers being able to carry in schools is a good idea. With that said, the first item that came to my mind is "how". In my opinion there are a large percentage of undisciplined children in school. Therefore how would said teacher carry? The gun could not reasonably be left in a desk drawer or cabinet because of the likely hood of a student finding it and creating an intolerable situation. That leaves, at least to me, having the gun on the teachers person, concealed or open.

I'm sorry if I took the discussion from "if" to the next step of "how to implement" in too rapid a manner. :)
 
Socialist?

Funny, I don't recall pushing socialist doctrine as a middle/high school band director. In fact, I got in to quite a bit of trouble in college because I wouldn't toe the party line in my ed classes!

I don't think I ever pushed any kind of political/social doctrine on my students, other than:
1. Success is a result of hard work over time
2. Music is a way of expressing said work through sound
3. Every member of the ensemble shares responsibility for achieving success
4. Through success in music, fun happens!!

I would also venture to say that I have just as much training as the vast majority of posters here on THR, and while I don't view children as precious, innocent little snowflakes as some do, if I were in the position of having to defend them in the manner indicated, I assure you that I would engage in as much training as possible to protect my students, as a point of professionalism if nothing else!

Point is, not all teachers share the socialist views of the education establishment, and to broadly label them as such is EXTREMELY offensive! Interesting that we all become righteously indignant when an anti applies the label of "gun nut", but seem to feel fine applying labels to others.
 
Think Armed Pilots

Think Armed pilots not air marshals. Look how difficult it was and still is to arm pilots.

So we have the asinine situation of trusting a pilot to safely hold the lives of an aircraft full of people whom he could kill at any moment and not trusting him to make rational decisions when forced to defend himself and that aircraft with a firearm.

1. They had to pass a law authorizing arms in the cockpit and then specifying the arms and the training,
2. The pilot had to volunteer,
3. The pilot had to qualify, at their own expense, to a, some would say, ridiculously high standard,
4. Then the way of being armed was mandated to be actually unsafe for everyone involved,
5. Armed or not the pilot's primary responsibility is still flying the aircraft safely,

How might this apply to teachers? There are many parallels. The teacher's job is to teach the curriculum not "defend" the students.

All teachers do not have to be armed though it wouldn't hurt. They are not being hired as armed guards or police they are simply being allowed to exercise the same rights we all, are supposed to, have.

Do I think teachers should "qualify"? Not any more than they would for any CCW permit. Would it be good if they took it seriously and trained for emergencies? Sure. Like CPR. You don't need "situational awareness" to be effective in an emergency you just need the training and tools and willingness.

There are no technical roadblocks to teachers being armed in the classroom. There are numerous concealing holsters available. Since teachers are virtually prohibited from physical contact with students I don't see cause for alarm on that count. If a teacher chooses to carry they will make what ever clothing adjustments are necessary just like the rest of us that carry concealed every day. If they screw up they get fired or fined. Simple enough. If I inadvertently "flash" my "concealed" firearm I can lose my permit. (this is not the case everywhere I know)

If I went back into the classroom I'd pack a gun and be tempted to wear armor as well. I've know teachers stabbed and shot and beaten. All were denied the basic tools of self defense. All attacked by students. So teachers have it tough. Off campus crazies, on campus monsters and they are supposed to gather round and sing Kumbaya and everything will be alright?

The best thing is to simply remove the Gun Free Zone BS and let the individual decide. The evidence is overwhelming and we shouldn't need to be having these conversations over and over and over again.

We are either for RTKBAs for others as well as ourselves or not. Just like all the other rights. Everybody gets them (unless they've individually lost them through agreed process) or soon no one will have them.
 
well, i'm with GEM.

there is no room to comprimise when it comes to the right to defend ones life, or others from people that wish harm upon us.

it's very simple you see, you either believe in the right of defending life, or you don't.
 
Debates do not belong over teachers who would carry. Take the gun off the table.
Debates do not belong over open vs concealed. Take the gun off the table.
Among RKBA proponents and activists the gun does not belong on the table for debate. Every fight that is waged among us is a win for the other side.
 
The point is that teachers with licenses and permits be allowed to carry concealed.

Fantasies of all teachers being armed or in open carry mode are irrelevant.

Anyone can manage with suitable common clothing to carry an undetectable J frame, PM9, G26 - unless you happen to faint and sprawl on the floor and the gun somehow becomes visible.

I would prefer, if I heard shots, to have one of these, then engaging in laptop-fu.

Also, about having to intervene as an LEO. That's stupid also, as with all concealed carry, you have the discretion to intervene. Typical CCW/CHL policy. It is no different from the church or the mall.

What is asked for is that carry be extended to schools - not to train a wave of pseudocops. No one is asking for that.

If the teacher who died holding the door shut could have had a firearm, perhaps he might have stopped Cho. Ya think?

The training argument is a double edged sword - I'm much more trained than the average CHL - so should I not support them carrying in church or the mall? I've seen CHLs shoot like totally crap. I don't want to sit next to them in a place of worship, they might shoot me if a nut comes in. Ban those losers!!

Or not. :cool:
 
I'm inclined to agree - I don't see any reason why teachers shouldn't be able to carry in schools.
To be a teacher you have to undergo more extensive checks than you do to buy a gun anyhow, so where is the problem?

Arming pilots is a different scenario IMO, but it's a debate we've had before so I won't sidetrack us with it here.
 
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