Please explain this dislike for TiteGroup and Kaboms

[Rule3]

On another forum there is a ongoing dislike for TiteGroup as it is a evil powder that blows up guns. Due to it's density and fast burning, in the event of a double charge it blows things up.

Now I admit I have not used the powder myself, just cause I neve have seen it around. I do not understand how it can be much different than say Bullseye which I use a lot of of.

Not looking for a debate of what is the best powder but more of why this powder is singled out?? Yes, it's dense and fast and not a lot in the case, but that can be Bullseye or any fast powder.

Any powder that is double charged would cause a problem, but what I do not understand about KABOOMS is wouldn't the pressure go to the point of least resistance? To me this would be the bullet and still force the bullet out. Why does the case bulge or burst before the bullet is released??

Is Titegroup just got a bad rep because so much of it is used and the odds are greater kinda like the whole Glock kaboom as there are so many 40sw in use??

It seems this event is mostly semi autos as I image a revolver cylinder is tougher to blow up?

 

[jerkface11]

It's not that the bullet doesn't move. I just doesn't move fast enough. The pressure goes up higher than the chamber can handle and KABOOM.

 

[rcmodel]

Why does the case bulge or burst before the bullet is released??

Because the pressure can't overcome bullet inertia slow enough, and the bullet can't get out of the way fast enough.

Try hitting a bowling ball with a doubled up fist as hard as you can and you will get the idea.

Right after you get back from the ER to have a cast put on your hand.

IMO: You are correct that a double charge of Tite Group is no worse or better then a double charge of Bullseye, or any other very fast powder.

rc

 

[Hondo 60]

I use Tite Group a lot.
It's very low charge weight can be an issue if you're not careful.

In a 38 spl case you could charge 4x or more before it overflows.

The upside is, it's economical, supposedly position insensitive, & has a low recoil.

Unfortunately, I've seen the evil side of it.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=692143&highlight=SP101
I'm ashamed that I let my guard down.

Please stay safe!

 

[jmorris]

I load a lot of TG mostly for SMG loads because it is cheaper than the (faster) VVN310 I normally use.

 

[Rule3]

Because the pressure can't overcome bullet inertia slow enough, and the bullet can't get out of the way fast enough.

Try hitting a bowling ball with a doubled up fist as hard as you can and you will get the idea.

Right after you get back from the ER to have a cast put on your hand.

IMO: You are correct that a double charge of Tite Group is no worse or better then a double charge of Bullseye, or any other very fast powder.

rc

I guess I am thinking like an analogy of say a water heater. The pressure build up and the relief valve pops before the tank does. Thats the part I can not grasp, seems the case wall would be stronger than the amount needed to just push the bullet out but apparently not. I guess water heaters build up slower.

So in a cartridge the pressure build up so fast that the case wall will blow first? It takes more pressure to blow the case wall than to push the bullet out enough to release it.?

In a 9mm for example, what is a guesstimate of how much to blow it up in terms of charges. A double charge?? I see from the Hodgdon data that there is not a big spread from low to high.

 

[1KPerDay]

I use Tite Group a lot.
It's very low charge weight can be an issue if you're not careful.

In a 38 spl case you could charge 4x or more before it overflows.

This is also true of HP-38/W231 and a bunch of commonly used powders in the .38 special. I'm trying to think of a powder that you can't at least triple charge. Maybe Trail Boss... but I bet you could fit a triple charge of the starting loads of TB in a case.

 

[Rule3]

I guess the only powder that is close to "idiot" proof is Trail Boss unless you compress it. I hate the stuff though, it floats away when you use it.

 

[returningfire]

TG is great, I use it in all handgun loads that I can, no problem. Sometimes it looks as though you don't have enough powder in the casing with tg, but you do. Just don't use over the max recommend load.

 

[rcmodel]

The pressure build up and the relief valve pops

Good enough analogy.

Think of the brass case being the pressure relief valve for the steel barrel and chamber.

Better the case lets go then the chamber.

In an auto pistol, that most often just results in a wrecked mag and maybe an extractor blown off.

guesstimate of how much to blow it up in terms of charges. A double charge??

Much less then that.
A 9mm is already running at 35,000 PSI or more in +P loads.

With faster powders, pressure increase is not directly liner with an increase in powder charge.

When max pressure is reached, a pressure spike can result if you keep going tyhat is all out of porportion to the amount of power being added.

rc

 

[Fishslayer]

Titegroup just has a rep for being spikey. IE, a small overcharge can raise pressure out of proportion to the volume increase.

Couple that with already high pressures in the 10mm Kurz, a new or inattentive reloader and maybe add an unsupported chamber...

Strickley anecdotal and totally unscientific but it just seems in a great number of spontaneously disassembled pistol stories Titegroup is somehow involved.

Not a hater, but I just won't touch the stuff & wouldn't recommend it for a new reloader. It supposedly isn't that great for cast bullets anyway and that's what I load the most.

 

[thump_rrr]

The problem with Titegroup or any other fast powder is a double charge or overcharge due to its inability to fill the cartridge case.
This means that a double charge will easily fit in the case unnoticed.
This same performance to volume ratio is what makes it economical.

If you properly develop your load and carefully reload so that you follow your charge weight and bullet seating depth it is no more dangerous than any other powder.

If you are loading on a single stage press you should charge 50 cases at a time in a loading block and look down into the 50 cases to ensure that each case has powder and that no case looks like it has more powder than the others.
It is quite easy to spot a double charge when looking down at the cases.

If you are loading on a progressive press then use a powder check or lockout die.
If I have a stoppage on the press I empty all 5 stations and put those casings to the side to be dealt with later. This prevents a squib or a double charge since this is the time it is most likely to happen.

 

[Otto]

I won't get into all the reasons why I dislike TG but I will say the powder has a nasty habit of bridging.
Powder bridging is when some to all of a powder charge get’s stuck in the baffle/funnel of the powder measure. When the next charge is thrown, that powder charge knocks loose the last powder charge and you essentially end up with an over charge to a double charge.
Without a careful visual inspection of each charge thrown, bridging can bite you in a bad way.

 

[sellersm]

If you add up these two characteristics, you can see why caution is advised:
- powder bridging (as Otto described quite well)
- spikey. as FishSlayer said well "a small overcharge can raise pressure out of proportion to the volume increase."

It's not an evil powder, but there are many other powders to use and some folks just don't consider it worth the effort. I've used it, but only in smaller doses for some plinking loads. I never get even close to MAX with that powder and avoid it in higher-pressure calibers. Works great in my .45acp loads, though!

 

[9w1911]

Visually inspect the powder level in each case before you seat a bullet

 

[kerreckt]

I have used Titegroup almost exclusively for my straight wall handgun reloads for longer than I can remember with no problems ever. That is zero problems.....ever. It seems any time I recommend that someone use it I get blasted by all the internet experts. All I can go on and all I want to go on is my experience of almost 40 years of reloading. I have probably shot 100k rounds loaded with Titegroup over the years. Maybe more....no problems. This kaboom thing has almost turned into an urban myth....everyone has heard or read about it but no one has actually seen it happen. When it happens do they know beyond a doubt that it was the fault of a proper amount of Titegroup. I like Titegroup because it is clean,accurate and economical. Just for full disclosure. I do not own or shoot any plastic guns. All my handguns are steel or something similar and I am very careful reloading. I visually inspect the charge (powder level) of every cartridge I reload.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

I like it because of its accuracy. It is cleaner than Bullseye. And yes, it is easy to do multiple charges. On one cartridge I wanted to see how much TG the case would hold, which was around 6 charges. But any fast powder can do that. Another case of too many experts with no experience, they just read it somewhere.

As for position sensitive, the ads say it is not, but Walkalong didn't agree.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6228830&postcount=17

Neither powder seems to be position sensitive in the .45 case.

Test the 3.3 Grs TG in .45 Colt powder completely back and powder completely forward. Get the numbers and you'll be surprised.

 

[GT1]

On top of the bridging, and spikiness, a look in most loading manuals will show about the closest min-max spreads of any powder.
That means many case-activated powder measure systems will be pushed to their limitations if you try to load in the middle of the range.

There are many other powders that work great with less things to worry about.

 

[gamestalker]

Introduce excessive pressures faster than can be vented by the bullet exiting, KB happens. I'm really at a loss of how it can be so difficult to understand? Too much of a certain powder, that was tested to produce a certain safe pressure threshold, in a certain amount of time.

GS

 

[gamestalker]

You can't double charge 296 / H110, Longshot, and a number of other slow burners. In fact with some powders you would only be wasting powder with tightly compressed charges. A .40 cal case with a maximum charge of Longshot, is just shy of filling the case to the top.

GS

 

[Crashbox]

TiteGroup was the very first powder I learned to reload with. I've since switched to cast bullets for my main .357 Magnum target practice rounds, so I don't use it so much any more. I avoid TG with cast because it burns HOT.

Never really had issues with it, but I've always used an RCBS Lock-out Die or Hornady Powder Cop on my progressive. I do try to peek into the case as well before installing the bullet.

 

[Yo2slick]

I use ALOT of Titegroup. Use it in 9mm, 45ACP, 38Spl and most of my 38 loads are cast bullets. They shoot great and I dont have any issues with leading. TiteGroup is a great powder, as long as you pay attention to your charges and inspect your brass you shouldnt have any issues.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I been using Titegroup for years and have never had a single issue with it. It's one of the only powders I use in both of my progressives in multiple calibers.
I've never had any of the issues I've read about here.
I use it for my target loads in 9mm and it's clean and very accurate.

There is no foolproof gun powders.

 

[zxcvbob]

I dislike Titegroup because I mostly load cast bullets in revolver cartridges. Titegroup is a dark soot color, and it disappears in a deep case; you can't tell by looking whether the charge is more or less than it should be. It also seems to burn hotter than other powders (fast or otherwise) and it makes a lot of smoke from the bullet lube and can stain and scorch your brass -- it's very hard to clean.

If you load mostly plated or jacketed bullets in rimless cases, TG probably works just fine. For what I load, Green Dot is pretty much interchangeable with TG and is easier to live with.

 

[gahunter12]

I have used TG in .40s&w in the past, but have since settled on WST. Most of my TG loads were below the recommended min per load specs. I never had a problem with TG. It is a low recoil powder, but burns hot. Lots of guys I shoot IDPA with use TG. We had a guy in our squad last July melt his Fiber Optic on his front sight using TG on a stage where we had to dump 4 to the body, and 2 in the head on 3 targets at 7, 10, and 15 yards with reloads between each target. That Glock35 was smoking hot.