Plot thickens regarding Wi hunter incident.

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Old Pa--another poster states that the Saiga had a quick-release scope mount--all it takes is a flick of the thumb and the scope is dismounted.

I disagree with your thought that magazines 'should have limited capacity' for a couple of reasons.

First, the underlying predicate is that limiting rounds will prevent mass murders. That is false: mass murders will go on. It's the SHOOTER--not the weapon.

On a more practical note, it is not unusual for a hunter to use two or three rounds to kill a deer, rather than allowing the deer to run off and bleed out someplace. Yes, the marksmanship is an issue, but so is the humane kill.

Finally, all my Ruger semi-auto .22's have 10-round magazines. You want to eliminate those? Good luck. There are probably 2 million 10-round magazines (maybe 20 million) around the country just for Ruger .22's.
 
ninenot: I made and make no negative comment about hi-cap magazines; I own and regularly shoot with hi-cap magazines. I have both 10 and 25 round magazines for my two 10/22s. My comment was along the line of my experience that a five round magazine is 1) of sufficient capacity for the vast majority of deer hunting, and 2) resulted in a rifle that weighed less, balanced better, and was quicker handling in hunting circumstances.

I have seen and tried the Saiga's quick release scope mount. When securely mounted, it required my attention and dexterity to "simply remove". This is good and required in a detachable scope mount the shooter does not want to have fall off during normal movement. I know from being in stressful situations and my own ongoing training that attention and dexterity are not so easy for me to demonstrate after the bullets start flying.

I agree completely with your assertion that it is the individual and not the tool; I do not know how you could have taken any other meaning from my original words. I do not think we should have any disagreement on any of the points you raised.
 
Modifying a Saiga to use standard AK magazines is not all that difficult to do, from what I understand. There's a website out there that details all the necessary steps to turn a Saiga into a standard confignuration AK, including allowing use of standard mags.

Alternately, I've seen pics in the shotgun section of a Saiga-12 one of the members here uses for 3-gun which features homemade 10 round mags.
 
Well, Chai Vang certainly gave the gun-haters some fodder. Here's an editorial from the Madison Capitol Times.

*****

?

Editorial: Blowing up gun myths

An editorial
November 26, 2004


At the risk of noting the obvious, Sunday's deadly confrontation between a semiautomatic weapon-wielding Minnesotan and a group of hunters in northern Wisconsin can and should be factored into debates about the availability of semiautomatic and automatic weapons.


When hunters in Sawyer County confronted the Minnesotan - a 36-year-old Hmong immigrant named Chai Vang who was in a deer stand on private property and told him that he would have to leave - several of the greatest myths that are peddled by opponents of gun control exploded.

To wit:



• Myth One: A semiautomatic weapon is just another kind of gun.

When he was told to leave, in what may or may not have been a racially charged incident, Vang is reported to have responded by opening fire with a high-powered semiautomatic SKS carbine. By the time he was done, six hunters - five men and a woman - were dead or dying. Two others were badly wounded. Several had been shot more than once. Though advocates for no-holds-barred gun policies will claim that just as much havoc could have been wreaked with a standard hunting rifle, that claim is nonsense.

Semiautomatic weapons are increasingly popular among hunters of a not particularly sporting ilk. But it is comic to suggest that they are needed for hunting, unless the targets are people. In northern Wisconsin on Sunday, the toll was higher because the shooter had a semiautomatic weapon.

Does this mean that we need a blanket ban on semiautomatic and automatic assault weapons from here on out? Not necessarily. There are subtleties in this debate - especially when guns are modified. But the debate ought to be more realistic than it has been up to this point, and what happened in northern Wisconsin on Sunday ought to be factored into the debate.



• Myth Two: When people are well armed and trained to use their weapons, they can protect themselves against gun violence.

The victims in Sawyer County had access to guns and knew how to use them. Most of the dead had long experience with their weapons. But they were not prepared for a confrontation with a man who was ready to kill and was carrying a semiautomatic weapon.

The notion that more guns will ever translate into less violence has always been absurd. But the incident on Sunday should remind everyone of the extent to which this fantasy can be deadly.

The point here is not to advocate for sweeping gun controls. This newspaper has always recognized the right to bear arms and we respect the hunting traditions that are so ingrained in Wisconsin.

The group of hunters who were attacked in the woods on Sunday had a right to bear arms. Initial reports suggested that most of them were exercising that right responsibly, although Vang's statement raised concerns about whether that was really the case. The Minnesotan claims that at least one of the Wisconsin hunters shouted a racial epithet at him and then shot at him.

The details of what really happened will have to be sorted out.

But the fact that volatile situations are made dramatically more dangerous when semiautomatic weapons are present should be beyond debate.

Sensible gun controls - perhaps in the form of a ban on hunting with semiautomatic and automatic weapons; perhaps in the form of a more sweeping restriction on the purchase of some guns - place some restrictions on the absolute right to bear arms. But such controls might well have saved at least some of the lives of those hunters.

The proper response to this deadly incident is a balanced one. Wisconsinites have a right to bear arms and to hunt, and that right ought to be protected. But they also have a right to be protected from weapons that are better designed for hunting people than deer.
 
Monkeyleg - Posting something from the Capitol Times is pretty funny. :banghead:

Actually, if the writer wants to check the "rights" of Wisconsin residents, among them he will find Article 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution:

The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.

However, I'm sure that the Capitol Times is all for the "reasonable restriction" of that right. In fact the line about "place some restrictions on the absolute right to bear arms" is a travesty. The fact of the matter is that with very few exceptions, Wisconsin does not allow for any form of bearing arms.

As you well know. :rolleyes:

Thanks again for all your work to rectify our current situation.
 
The victims in Sawyer County had access to guns and knew how to use them. Most of the dead had long experience with their weapons. But they were not prepared for a confrontation with a man who was ready to kill and was carrying a semiautomatic weapon.


uhhhhhhhh... Wasnt there only ONE gun amongst the 8 people? If they ALL had guns I'm sure this would have turned out MUCH differently.
 
And being law abiding and wearing their orange in the woods during gun deer season was of no particular comfort to the victims. Vang seemed particularly ready for that eventuality.
 
Just incase anybody was wondering..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

..No, Chai Vang is not a relative of mine

You're not Laotian are you? Even if your last name were Vang, I've come to the conclusion that many (especially Vietnamese) Asian surnames are so common that it would be like thinking a European descended person who's last name were Smith was related to some other Smith just because of their name. I'll bet there's a thousand guys named Van Nguyen just in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, none particularly related to each other other than being Vietnamese.

I have such an uncommon English surname, Wiggin (not Wiggins) that every other person in America that I've met with that surname was either a known relative to me or hailed originally from a part of the country (upper New England) that I knew they were related to me to one degree or another just by geography.
 
The bad part...

of this, my WI friends tell me, is that the crime is notable enough that it'll be prosecuted directly by the state Atty. General. Who happens to be Peg Lautenschlager. Who is an appointee of Democrat Governer James Doyle, the person who vetoed the WI CCW bill. They both live in Madison, the capital city, which is a hotbed of knee-jerk, PC, liberalism.

Now, Doyle has already said that this crime "is not about hunting," so I wonder what he thinks it IS about, other than banning those awful assault weapons.

I wonder how much slack is going to be cut for the poor opressed Hmong?
 
Who happens to be Peg Lautenschlager

Another bad thing is that Lautenshclager has very low credibility in our state and can be pretty much be considered as "damaged goods" when it comes to being a prosecuter. She was picked up for drunk driving last year after she crashed a state owned vehicle while driving home which was about 100 miles away from Madison. Of course she paid for the use of state owned vehicles after she was investigated and found to have been using them for personal purposes several years- a major ethics violation.

The only thing she has done so far as AG in our state was to join in some bogus environmental lawsuit with other states against some out of state utilities. This is pretty telling when you consider that not 100 miles away from the Capitol, the Milwaukee Sewage district has beed dumping billions of gallons of raw sewage into lake michigan- an issue that no liberal in our state, nor any of the lefty environmental groups are willing to touch with a 10 foot pole, despite large amounts of public outrage. :cuss:


Having Lautenschlager prosecute Vang will probably be the biggest chance Vang will ever have for leniency.
 
Yeah, get called a bad, racist name and that justifies shooting people in the back. :scrutiny

I don't care if those guys called him every racist name in the dictionary. Shooting someone for calling you names is a felony. Period.
 
For a WI county to be able to have the WI AG's office take over prosecution of a file probably means a proscutor with staff from that office will be assigned. Lautenshlager is the politico figurehead; she'll have someone else with actual trial expertise do the actual work.
 
Old Pa--

I expect that you're right about Lautenschlager being a figurehead, and a real trial atty actually doing the work. My concern is that being a prosecutor, the atty in question actually prosecutes, and leaves the seeking of a lesser punishment to the defense, rather than pitching softballs because of the PC nature of the accused. Wouldn't someone else from Lautenschlager's office tend to be just as much a PC liberal as she?

I also hope and pray, that because the accused is a downtrodden minority, that somehow the use of a horrible assault rifle doesn't work against the other side, or against gun ownership in general.

We shall see, I guess. Certes, the media won't leave this one alone.
 
As the Gov and his appointed AG are the chief law enforcement officers for the state, as well as being politicos to the bone, my guess is that they will zealously prosecute Vang and any accomplices in this high profile multiple homicide for the max charge and penalty so as to best express to the WI electorate their fervent desire to be re-elected.
 
Doyle and Lautenschager hate each other. He just sat back and laughed when the AG was going through the wringer on the DUI and state car issues.
 
Sensible gun controls - perhaps in the form of a ban on hunting with semiautomatic and automatic weapons

Yep, there is no ban in place with this weapon. :barf:


The notion that more guns will ever translate into less violence has always been absurd. But the incident on Sunday should remind everyone of the extent to which this fantasy can be deadly

So, do you mean if there had been 8 guns for 8 hunters more people would have been shot in the back???

:banghead: :banghead:
--Going to buy more ammo for sks--
Tony
 
Jeez, I'm sick of people trying to justify their actions by claiming racial slurs as a justification.

So am I, and I suspect it is being done in this case for two reasons; 1) the media wants to portray all gun owners and hunters as negatively as possible, and, 2) the perpetrator (and no doubt his lawyer) desires to look like a victim himself in hopes that it will go over well with a jury.

From what I've read, this is not the first time the Hmong community has been at odds with the locals. Apparently there have been numerous clashes over thier (to quote more than one resident) "total lack of respect" for property rights. If the townspeople are to be believed, during hunts they wander freely onto private land as though they owned it and are extremely reluctant to leave.

Clearly, not all immigrants are successfully assimilating into our culture and it is past time that we required them to do so.
 
"The notion that more guns will ever translate into less violence has always been absurd."

It seems to have worked for the armed members of the victims party that Vang did NOT shoot after he had shot the first victims and reversed his clothing to camo.

Also -- I read this morning that Vang is getting some high-priced lawyers from Milwaukee as his legal council. I'm sure that Vang, who lives in a modest house in St. Paul, drives a truck for a living and keeps chickens in his city yard, has plenty of $$$ stashed away for legal bills. :rolleyes:

Now just watch these slick attorneys get the case dismissed over some technicality. :fire: Also -- the race card will be in full play, driving an even bigger wedge between cultures. :fire:
 
Clearly, not all immigrants are successfully assimilating into our culture and it is past time that we required them to do so.
In response to a question raised a couple of posts above, it strikes me that THIS is what this case is really about.
 
This subject has been beat to death since it first aired.This thread is useless,so far nothing has been accomplished by it.It's a real tragedy that 6 hunters died(gunned down) while hunting,but life goes on.So far everything here has been speculation and opinions formed by the readers & reported by the media(they NEVER get anything right) & the sheriffs department.YES,he's guilty of a crime;let the lawyers & court system decide the crime and the punishment.Geeez,get on with your lives,shut this thread down.Enough is enough!
 
It's a Forum. Its purpose is for discussion. Most everything in every thread is opinion, assumption and belief. If you're not interested then don't read it, but for many it's the discussion itself that is as interesting as the event in question, or moreso.
 
Clearly, not all immigrants are successfully assimilating into our culture and it is past time that we required them to do so.

No theres a pro freedom statement if I ever saw one! Lets FORCE people to conform!

Wildofcourseitpressupposesthatwecandefine"ourculture"Alaska
 
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