Plot thickens regarding Wi hunter incident.

[one45auto]

No theres a pro freedom statement if I ever saw one! Lets FORCE people to conform!

Wildofcourseitpressupposesthatwecandefine"ourculture"Alaska

It never ceases to surprise me just how many people take the view that we, as Americans, have no culture of our own. Why? Because our nation is not as old as, say, England or France? Perhaps Italy? Must we wait a thousand years or so before we can claim one?

The simply truth is that we do have a culture, and one unique to ourselves. It's examplified in our writings, our Holidays, our beliefs, our culinary tastes, and so forth. It's baseball, football, fast food, barbecues, Bluegrass music, public libraries, the Constitution, the Declaration Of Independence, and our own peculiar slant on the English language ~ to name but a few. Every other nation in the world protects it's heritage and culture, so why not us?

Try moving to India and telling them that the stautes of Ganesh offend your Christian sensibilities and see if they'll remove or outlaw thier public display merely to avoid offending you. Or relocate to Italy and tell them you want a public celebration honoring the Fourth of July - just to make you feel at home. Better yet, buy a house in Israel and ask the city fathers to throw a celebratory pig roast.

It's no denial of freedom to demand that those who emmigrate to our shores come here knowing that this is the way things are and that they must be willing to accept it. It's no imposition to require that they speak the language either, or respect local customs like property rights, free speech, gun rights, and so on.

Believe me, something is seriously wrong when you pull up to a McDonald's drive-thru and the girl at the window speaks so little english that she cannot understand a request for ketchup. It's even worse when she calls over the manager and he not only speaks a different tongue than she does, but moreover knows even less of our language! What if a customer suffered a heart attack and tried to ask them to telephone for an ambulance? What if they themselves needed to telephone police or emergency services?

We used to be a melting pot, but since the fire under the cauldron (namely a common culture and language) was removed we've become nothing more than a chunky stew. Theodore Roosevelt said it best when he remarked:

“There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americans…The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities.â€

 

[Freedomv]

Very well said, one45auto. I could not have said it better.
Vern

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Quote:
Clearly, not all immigrants are successfully assimilating into our culture and it is past time that we required them to do so.


No theres a pro freedom statement if I ever saw one! Lets FORCE people to conform!

It's not about "freedom," it's about law. All so-called civilized societies represent contracts between/among the citizens. The contract is an agreement to abide by the rules (laws) enacted by that society, by whatever means that society uses to enact rules/laws, or accept the consequences. The United States of American is a society that long ago "agreed" (contracted) to allow individuals to own property, and to have the right to control who may or may not enter onto/into their private property.

If what we're reading in the follow-up articles to this shooting is true, it appears that many Hmong people still choose to ignore the rules/laws of a country to which they came voluntarily, and whose laws they specifically agred to follow when they were granted permission to live here.

I don't have a problem if they wish to speak their language among themselves, I don't have a problem if they wish to wear native dress, I don't have a problem if they wish to worship God using a name other than Yahweh. I DO have a problem if they decide they have a right to enter onto MY private property without my express permission. That is illegal, and it's called "trespassing." It's sort of like the old saying that "Your right to freedom of expression ends when your fist hits my face."

 

[Wildalaska]

t's baseball, football, fast food, barbecues, Bluegrass music, public libraries, the Constitution, the Declaration Of Independence, and our own peculiar slant on the English language ~ to name but a few. Every other nation in the world protects it's heritage and culture, so why not us?

And its soccer, Chinese New Year, St Pattys day, reggae, rap, hockey, blintzes, chow mein,Christmas, hannukah, Kwanzaa, along with such englishisms as:
Hasta la vista baby (spanglish)
Head honcho (japanese)
schmuck (yiddish)
gung ho (chinese)


Point being is that our "culture" is such an amalgamation of all the worlds people as it is almost undefineble

Believe me, something is seriously wrong when you pull up to a McDonald's drive-thru and the girl at the window speaks so little english that she cannot understand a request for ketchup.

Perhaps the worngness is that our nice American kiddies look down on menial jobs like Mickey Ds, while immigrants have no problem gettin out there and working....and if they dont speak perfect english...o well, they are working they will learn

I detect just a hint of rascism in this thread,,,,


WildnihowmaAlaska

 

[one45auto]

I detect just a hint of rascism in this thread,,,,

Only if you define racism as any criticism, however justified, of either a minority or thier actions.

 

[PaleRyder]

Here in Indianapolis, a man yesterday kidnapped his own mother at knifepoint, and tried to force her to take 4,000 out of the bank. He was arrested without getting a chance to harm anyone.

This jerk was supposed to be serving a 20 year sentence for manslaughter, shooting man to death in 1989 during an argument, and had been paroled after only serving 8 years, I think.

Why the *&^% is anyone who kills another person in manslaughter let out of prison early?

And why are those convicted for horrible murders not hung the next morning?

 

[Gunsnrovers]

My family is made up of post WWI immigrants on both sides.

To me the biggest difference between then and now is in what our schools teach. My wife is a teacher in Inglewood, CA and has been for 14 years. I have substituted there many times. In the past, the US was called a "melting pot". For more then a few years, the children here have been taught that the US is a "salad bowl". Everyone gets to maintain their seperate and unique taste and flavor.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Perhaps the worngness is that our nice American kiddies look down on menial jobs like Mickey Ds, while immigrants have no problem gettin out there and working....and if they dont speak perfect english...o well, they are working they will learn

Speaking as a middle class, WASPish, educated (most of the way), white guy with over 4 years at McDonalds I take exception to that remark. There have also been plenty of nice American kids working at my fairly menial jobs at two college dining services and a grocery store deli. American kids often look for better jobs, but it is definitely "racist" to say that they all think they are too good for menial jobs. Some may, but not all.

And its soccer, Chinese New Year, St Pattys day, reggae, rap, hockey, blintzes, chow mein,Christmas, hannukah, Kwanzaa, along with such englishisms as:
Hasta la vista baby (spanglish)
Head honcho (japanese)
schmuck (yiddish)
gung ho (chinese)


Point being is that our "culture" is such an amalgamation of all the worlds people as it is almost undefineble

False, on two points. One, in a certain sense every culture is an amalgamation to some degree. For example, the English language in general, not just English in America, is descended from Latin, German, and...French? It's continued to morph even further. Every try reading Old English? But it all happened 500 years ago so no one brings it up. Cultures are the same way. They grow and incorporate elements from other societies. To single out the facets of American culture that are currently in flux and claim that as a result American has no culture is ridiculous.

Two, a lot of the things you mentioned are things some Americans celebrate, but are not really considered "American." For example, I celebrate Christmas, eat chow mein, and like hockey (thanks Katie...), but don't celebrate St. Paddy's Day, don't eat blintzes, and hate rap. So, does that make me American or not American? The fact that we are such a melting pot (or stew or salad or whatever) guarentees that there will be things observed or practiced by parts of our society, but not by all of it. But the fact remain that there are certain things that are undeniably American. Baseball, football (the kind with tackling and quarterbacks), the Fourth of July, and everything else one45auto said.


Finally, there is a certain expectation that members of a society observe basic norms. Speaking the language is one. Observing the laws is another. If you move to China and expect to be able to speak English to everyone everywhere all the time and pack your 1911 all the time you will be sadly disappointed. Why should we not expect the same of people here?

 

[2nd Amendment]

I detect just a hint of rascism in this thread,,,,

I won't say what I detect

 

[pax]

Just have to say here that like everyone else, I'm appalled at this news story. Feel bad for the families of the victims and worried about the ammunition this incident has handed gun-control people.

You know what depresses me about this on a personal level, though?

It's completely ruined one of my favorite stupid songs, Tom Lehrer's The Hunting Song.

I hate that.

pax

 

[Wildalaska]

To single out the facets of American culture that are currently in flux and claim that as a result American has no culture is ridiculous.

Theres a difference between the concept of "no" and undefinable...

But the fact remain that there are certain things that are undeniably American. Baseball, football (the kind with tackling and quarterbacks), the Fourth of July, and everything else one45auto said.

Sorry you cant pick and choose what you like and use that to define a culture...for example I hate football...does that make me unamerican? How bout a Hmong guy, cant speak a whit of english, but does the rice paddy squat in his back yard watching the Packers on TV with a Green bay hat on....well then hes an american....Baseball bores me....but my Japanese wife is a baseball freak and walks around with a Mariners hat on...she likjes to go to 4th of July picnics while I could giuve a hoot....shes the American.neh?

By the way.....is anyone gonna seriously argue that our immaigration laws dont have a rascist origen?

WildunwashedmassesAlaska

 

[Geech]

Sorry you cant pick and choose what you like and use that to define a culture...for example I hate football...does that make me unamerican? How bout a Hmong guy, cant speak a whit of english, but does the rice paddy squat in his back yard watching the Packers on TV with a Green bay hat on....well then hes an american....Baseball bores me....but my Japanese wife is a baseball freak and walks around with a Mariners hat on...she likjes to go to 4th of July picnics while I could giuve a hoot....shes the American.neh?

Does everyone living in China, France, or Italy think and act the same way? You apparently missed an important element in his post: Every culture in the entire world is draws from many different sources. I'll also take this opportunity to make the incredibly bold statement that no culture applies completely and universally to everyone who considers himself/herself part of that culture.

 

[JDThorns]

I know I Dont Have All the info

But after reading sll the post, true or not 1 thing comes to mind.
VC flashback. they used the same tstics on us in Vetnam. JDT

 

[cracked butt]

But after reading sll the post, true or not 1 thing comes to mind.VCflashback. they used the same tstics on us in Vetnam. JDT

He would have had to been maybe 5 or 6 years old when the Vietnam war was ending?

 

[c_yeager]

But after reading sll the post, true or not 1 thing comes to mind.VC flashback. they used the same tstics on us in Vetnam. JDT

Um, not to be a jerk or anything but, according to this article the man is a Hmong from Laos. If he participated in Vietnam at all it would have been on OUR side. The hmong served along side out special forces with distinction and honor and made a difference in interrupting the NVA supply train through Laos.

Just because he is from SE Asia doesnt make him one of the bad guys. Assumptions like that lend some (minimal) credence to the man's story.

 

[Oleg Volk]

For more then a few years, the children here have been taught that the US is a "salad bowl". Everyone gets to maintain their seperate and unique taste and flavor.

In reality, today's immigrants assimilate much faster than most did around 1900 or so. As for the inability to use standard English or any facsimile thereof (sorry about the use of a Euro term), all of the students I've had who suffered from such a dysfunction were native-born Americans.

 

[Yooper]

The question I keep coming back to is: What was Vang doing there? According to reports I've read, he owns 40 acres of land in Minnesota so he must have some concept of property owner's rights. He is of Asian origin, if he has a thin skin where racially oriented comments are concerned, why would he put himself in an area where encounters with other (probably armed) individuals, almost certainly non-Asian, are likely? Under those conditions, it seems reasonable for a person to take great care to hunt only on public lands and avoid trespassing at all costs.

I owned a dairy farm in northern Wisconsin several years ago and I hunted there with my invited guests. Every year it was necessary to evict at least one, usually more, trespassing hunter(s) who "wandered" onto the farm in spite of the signs posted and the fact that the nearest public land was 10 miles away. It got to where I almost dreaded the arrival of deer hunting season and the inevitable confrontation(s).

 

[2nd Amendment]

In reality, today's immigrants assimilate much faster than most did around 1900 or so. As for the inability to use standard English or any facsimile thereof (sorry about the use of a Euro term), all of the students I've had who suffered from such a dysfunction were native-born Americans.

That's nice.

Assimilate more quickly? I'd love to see some stats to back that up(assimilation meaning aquiring language and social skills, not whether they band together in communities).

I'd also love to see some stats to back up the language claim. Locally we have a sudden influx of Mexicans. Each group has an appointed spokesperson, the rest are lucky to manage "Hi" and "Bye". Some haven't accomplished much more after two years here, and for some, this working in customer service! Also we've got a pretty good population of "arabs" at area colleges. Either these folks can't speak English well(if at all) or they truly enjoy insulting Citizens with their other-lingual antics.

No, while I always hear people complaining about how someone is trying to say "How good it used to be" I'll say I am tired of hearing about "How good it is". We had problems "then" but we also have problems now. Thing is we have a higher population density, a greater total number of immigrants and less societal demands placed upon them to fit in...or to even try...today. Also, 100 years ago they came here for a better life grown from the sweat of their brow. Today too many come here for a better life based on free education and fedgov handouts.

They have no goals, other than easy street, and no respect for the US. Yes, there are exceptions but at this point they are increasingly just that: Exceptions. It's a new set of problems but they are very real and denying their existence or slapping PC labels on them won't make them go away.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Tom Lehrer memories

Hey, Pax, "no one" remembers Tom Lehrer any more! Hadn't thought about that song for years, but now that you mention it, this incident ruins it for me, to.

Hey everybody else, please quit arguing about what is/isn't American and whether you/your adversary are/aren't. You're all correct, and none of you is correct. You're being like the blind men and the elephant in the poem.

Fact is, we just don't know all the facts in this case. Nor how this one case relates to other incidents. Nor how our particular experience in a less-or-more similar situation applies. We may never know, but the trial is likely to bring out at least some approximation of the truth.

After that will be soon enough for intelligent discussion.

I too am concerned about what the antis will do with this, but we will have to wait and see; there is little to be accomplished by idle speculation.

I too wish heartfelt condolences to the bereaved. That is one thing of which I am sure.

 

[Art Eatman]

Aw,now Smokey Joe, there're a bunch of folks who remember Tom Lehrer.

I have most of his albums, plus a songbook. Guess I'll have to dig them out to refresh my memory.

The difference between me'n'pax is that I first heard them when they were new.

, Art

 

[tyme]

This reduces to the same problem involved with labelling Muslims "terrorists" or police "pigs". What percentage of the named group has to be "bad" for that label to be appropriate? 25%? 51%? 95%? 100%?

And is there a gradient of "badness"? Can you call police "pigs" if 20% of them are corrupt, drug-dealing murderers, but not if 20% of them merely fail to enforce the 2nd amendment in the face of state and federal laws? Does that require a higher percentage?

Similarly, can Muslims be denigrated if 20% of them explicitly call for violent jihad, but not if 20% of them merely state their support of sharia in the U.S. but fail to call for violence?


Then there's the issue of other people in the group not denouncing the wrong-doers. Either way, the group and its leadership lose. If they denounce evil members, some people consider that an admission that somehow the group is responsible for the evil, because the group acknowledges that the evildoers were members rather than some rogue element. If there is no denunciation, others consider that to be tacit support of the evils committed by the evil subset of group members.

 

[Sawdust]

Aw,now Smokey Joe, there're a bunch of folks who remember Tom Lehrer.

I prefer "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park", myself.

Sawdust

 

[pax]

sawdust,

My oldest kid knew all the words to that one before he was five years old.

My little sister is a 2nd grade schoolteacher down in California. When we went to visit them, my son treated her to a performance of the song.

You should have seen her face. "Horrified" doesn't half cover it.

pax

 

[why_me]

is this the same Tom Lehrer

NM stupid thought. it is not Tom Lehrer the news broadcaster

 

[c_yeager]

Hey, Pax, "no one" remembers Tom Lehrer any more! Hadn't thought about that song for years, but now that you mention it, this incident ruins it for me, to.

I have the collection on CD and i'm 25. Of course my parents were a little odd.