Plus P Plus? +P+?

[Coldfinger]

When I get home I'll take a better picture of the case in question.
Bottom line is that the case is manufactured exactly the same as regular 9mm? No difference? That's the jist of my question.

I've bought 2 new pistols in the last 30 days. Neither the M&P 2.0 9mm nor the XDM 10 had a fired case in the box. Not complaining just a statement.

 

[TxWolf]

Mine didn’t have a fired case with it either.

 

[TxWolf]

Probably won’t ever shoot +P thru it either. If 17 rounds doesn’t produce the desired effect a little more velocity from them isn’t going to make a big difference. Lol

 

[Coldfinger]

I'd also like to know what they do to achieve the higher pressures. How much higher are they getting?

 

[Coldfinger]

Probably won’t ever shoot +P thru it either. If 17 rounds doesn’t produce the desired effect a little more velocity from them isn’t going to make a big difference. Lol

Exactly. 9mm isn't my carry or defense caliber anyway. It's just for trigger time

 

[fxvr5]

Here a photo of the Winchester 127 Ranger +P+.

 

[fxvr5]

So how do they get the higher pressures to make it a +P+ ? Faster powders?

No, at least not a faster burning powder.

All they have to do is add more powder. It's that simple.

 

[TxWolf]

Exactly. 9mm isn't my carry or defense caliber anyway. It's just for trigger time

Yeah. Plates is all I shoot with mine.

 

[TxWolf]

So what is the working pressure of +P and +P+?
Does anyone know if it’s published?

 

[fxvr5]

I'd also like to know what they do to achieve the higher pressures. How much higher are they getting?

Just add more powder.

The pressure limit of regular 9mm is 35,000 psi. The pressure limit for 9mm +P is 38,500 psi.

There is no pressure limit for +P+, so the actual chamber pressure is not known, except by them.

The name 9 Major was posted earlier. It is a wildcat 9mm with more powder and more pressure (depending on the gunpowder) made for competition guns designed to handle the pressure.

Here is an article on 9 Major;
https://americanhandgunner.com/discover/whats-9-major/

Here's an article on loading 9 Major;
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/1/9/how-to-use-9-major-in-a-short-barrel/

NOTE: 9 Major is ONLY for guns designed to handle the pressure.

 

[TxWolf]

Thanks for the info

 

[fxvr5]

Here are the SAAMI pressure specs:

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

 

[fxvr5]

Bottom line is that the case is manufactured exactly the same as regular 9mm? No difference? That's the jist of my question.

As previously stated, if the manufacturer knows their current product will handle the pressure in the unsupported region, they don't need to change anything. If they do make changes, they can increase the thickness at the head where it needs support.

There are a couple of cases that I know of that are treated special in order to handle high pressure. One is the 45 Super. From Starline's website, "45 Super* is the same externally as the 45 Auto, but has a thicker web, denser grain structure in the metal, and special heat treat process that enhances the durability of the case. Similar internal capacity as the 45 Auto."
https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-super-brass

The other case is the original 9X23 Winchester. It takes extreme high pressure, up to 55,000 psi in an unsupported case. You can read about it here:
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/cartridge-review-9x23-winchester/99601

 

[jmorris]

There are specifications for “+p” as far as pressure is concerned, even though there isn’t a standard between rounds as to how much over pressure they are.



+P+ just means they are over +P by one unit of pressure, over +p, all the way to kaboom, is +P+.

 

[Typetwelve]

Like people are saying, that one on the L is Winchester +P+...I have plenty of it in their Ranger line. I have also shot plenty of the somewhat-famous Federal 9BPLE, which is also a +P+ round and was used by the Illinois State Police for decades.

Of the Winchester +P+ that I have, it's all 127g, the BPLE is 115g. It is all notably "snappier" than std loads, but nothing insane. I chrono'd the 9BPLE from my 4.5" XDm, it had an average of 1335 fps. Only about 135 fps faster than Winchester White box 115g, which came in at an average of 1205 fps.

In the end, I wouldn't run 1000's of rounds of the stuff through my guns (IF I could afford to), but they're not blazing hot by any means.

 

[Jerry M]

Aren't these rounds manufactured mainly for use in Sub-machine guns?

One of the original +P+ was the Winchester .38 Special+P+ known as the 'Treasury Load' - like a light .357 Magnum load for use by departments that didn't want to issue "Magnum" ammunition. Forgot the speed but it was a 110 grain bullet.

 

[Typetwelve]

Aren't these rounds manufactured mainly for use in Sub-machine guns?

One of the original +P+ was the Winchester .38 Special+P+ known as the 'Treasury Load' - like a light .357 Magnum load for use by departments that didn't want to issue "Magnum" ammunition. Forgot the speed but it was a 110 grain bullet.

Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure that was the point of real 9mm NATO ammo. It was held to a certain set of manufacturing guidelines and has a bit more umph as to properly cycle sub machine guns.

 

[243winxb]

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
Federal 9mm Luger 115 Grain +P+ Jacketed Hollow Point 9BPLE- 50 Rounds

Federal's Classic line of ammunition has served law enforcement officers for generations. It has proven itself as a consistent, dependable performer at a reasonable price. Hi-Shok® bullets hit hard and expand reliably for effective energy transfer. You'll find enhancements of bullets throughout this line of Classic ammunition, just as they have been for decades.

• Caliber: 9mm Luger (9x19mm, 9mm Para)
• Bullet Weight: 115 Grain
• Bullet Style: +P+ Hi-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP)
• Bullet Casing: Nickle
• Muzzle (Velocity): 1300 fps
• Muzzle (Energy): 432 Ft. Lbs
• Recommended for Training
• Factory NEW Manufacture
• Manufacturer's Part #: 9BPLE
• Made in the USA by Federal Cartridge Co.

Police only??

 

[jmorris]

• Caliber: 9mm Luger (9x19mm, 9mm Para)
• Bullet Weight: 115 Grain
• Bullet Style: +P+ Hi-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP)
• Bullet Casing: Nickle
• Muzzle (Velocity): 1300 fps

As good a time as any to point out, if powders are chosen properly, one can get the same performance without loading over pressure ammunition.


^ data is with a 4” barrel, from here.

https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/?cartridge=89

 

[Riomouse911]

Aren't these rounds manufactured mainly for use in Sub-machine guns?

One of the original +P+ was the Winchester .38 Special+P+ known as the 'Treasury Load' - like a light .357 Magnum load for use by departments that didn't want to issue "Magnum" ammunition. Forgot the speed but it was a 110 grain bullet.

I recall IMI had higher 9mm pressure loads for the UZI that came with a black tip bullet back in the day, those were allegedly souped up for sub-gun use.

The 127 gr SXT Ranger +P+ load was intended for duty sidearm use by law enforcement. I still have at least two cases of it on my shelves, it was our standard-duty issue round since at least 2005. According to acquaintances at the Coroners office these rounds have been very effective in shootings so the County has issued the SXT in .40, .45 and .357 SIG for duty, and in .380 and .38 Spl +P for backups/off duty.

About two years ago the decision was made to go to the Ranger 124 gr +P SXT load. Allegedly gun makers like Glock, S.A., SIG etc. would void the warranty on county-owned and personal 9mm sidearms that were shooting the +P+ ammo year after year.
The Coroners investigators I know haven’t seen any drop off in performance with this 9mm load since the switch.

Stay safe.

 

[243winxb]

Note the pressures of PROOF LOADS. The brass will be scrap after firing.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Am I reading that wrong or is 9mm proof loads higher pressure than 10mm proof loads. I wouldn't have thought that.

 

[jmorris]

The chart deleted 9x19 and instead uses the over pressure +P 9mm limit (purple line).

So instead of 35,000 psi the 9mm is at the +p 38,500 psi SAAMI spec.

That’s what puts it over the 37,500 max of the 10mm, as far as a proof load as a percentage over a “maximum”.

 

[fxvr5]

One of the original +P+ was the Winchester .38 Special+P+ known as the 'Treasury Load' - like a light .357 Magnum load for use by departments that didn't want to issue "Magnum" ammunition. Forgot the speed but it was a 110 grain bullet.

The 38 Special +P+ Treasury load specs are a 110 grain JHP bullet at 1,155 fps from a 4" barrel and 990 fps from a 2" barrel. The maximum average pressure for the treasury load, as loaded by Winchester, is 23,500 psi.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I've been reloading getting on 2 decades. I can figure most things out. I really can't wrap my stupid brain around +P+ brass. Maybe +P
Correct me if I'm wrong but there isn't a +P rated pistol out there. They are 9mm or 9x19 and that's that. The case has to be dimensionally correct to function. So basically the only way to get more "pressure" is to decrease case capacity or add more propellant.

And that's exactly what they do -- add more propellent to an existing round.

If you check with the manufacturer of your pistol, you will find some of them will soil themselves at the mention of shooting +P in their guns, other advertise it. Example: .45 Colt in the SAA and the Ruger Blackhawk. Colt will insist you stay with the SAAMI limit (14K PSI) and Ruger's okay with 32K PSI.