PMR-30 as a carry weapon?

[GLOOB]

Yes, I see the error of my example. Thanks!

 

[MachIVshooter]

there's a thing called rimlock. This is a phenomenon related to 1. bad magazine design and 2. high recoil.

And 3, a semi-rimmed design, like the .25 ACP and .32 ACP, where the protrusion of the rim on the cartridge above gets hooked in the extractor groove of the one below. True rimmed cartridges really don't suffer from that, as it'd be darn near impossible for the rim of one to jump over the next.

 

[valorius]

So, can anyone here regale us with stories of the unreliability of .22 WMR?

I have had .22 WMR factory ammo fail to go bang for me while hunting a couple times.

So rimmed cartridges are just fine in autoloaders eh?

Hmmm, ok.

Please explain the existence of the .357 Sig cartridge, which was designed to, and i quote, "Mimic the ballistics of the .357 magnum in a reliable autoloading design."

 

[Joe Demko]

Rimmed cartridges work well enough in autoloaders designed to handle them. There's been a kajillion Ruger, Beretta, Colt, High Standard et.al. .22 autoloading pistols. Provided the magazine is designed with adequate rake, the rim is not an issue.
Coonan manufactured a .357 magnum 1911 derivative. The few who own them do not seem to find the rim to be an issue.
Lots of folks own .38 Super 1911's. The only issue with the semi-rim there seems to be that older guns headspaced on it rather than on the case mouth.
S&W marketed an autoloader that fired .38 spl wadcutters. It was a specialized target piece, but the couple guys I knew who used them in gun club competions said they worked well enough if ammo was in spec.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

Its certainly possible to design a reliable .357mag autoloader. The .357sig merely makes it easier to do so, as you can use a pistol with a more standard chamber/grip/magazine length.

 

[valorius]

There is a .357 mag autoloader, but it's a gigantic heavy beast, and they are known to be finicky with ammo selection.



Conversely, there are about a gillion different models chambered for the rimless .357 Sig cartridge, a cartridge specifically designed to give you .357 mag ballistics in a rimless case.

Rimmed cartridges work well enough in autoloaders designed to handle them. There's been a kajillion Ruger, Beretta, Colt, High Standard et.al. .22 autoloading pistols.

Yes, i've shot all manner of them. They're all more or less finicky in my experience. Toss in the misfires on top of it, and the very weak terminal performance of tiny 30gr .22 bullets in the 100fpe of energy range, and what you end up with is not a good defensive arm.

Why tempt fate? A 9mm, a .357 Sig, a .40S&W or a .45auto is a known commodity and any of them will cause far more tissue destruction than a tiny little 30gr solid bullet will.

The Coonan Arms .357 mag is an extremely obscure gun that was on the market for a very short time. Hardly what i'd call a success story to point to.

 

[Joe Demko]

Sort of. It gives you ballistics similar to one particular .357 magnum load. I expect there is much less diversity in .357 Sig loadings than there is in .357 magnum loadings. The DE's reputation for being picky doesn't have much, if anything, to do with the rim on the cartridge. Partially, it is due to gas operation. Use of unjacketed lead bullets isn't kind to it. Partly it is due to .357 magnum loads including a wide range of bullet weights and powder charges. Autoloaders in general are designed to work most reliably with ammo that meets certain specs. Stray from those specs and you court problems.

 

[valorius]

Stray from rimless, centerfire ammo, and you court problems in autoloaders too.

Rimlock is entirely feasible in a autoloading magazine. I've certainly had my share of rimlock issues with a .32acp Kel Tec. It's gone now in large part because it would rimlock pretty consistently with my favorite .32acp load.

Why ask for trouble?

I bought a .380 LCP. It's rimless, centerfire....it works. And it's got more than double the energy of a .22 mag from a pistol, and it will expand to triple the diameter of one too, while still getting 10+" of penetration.

Want a solid for deep penetration? You can put those in your .380 too. There are flat point loads in .380 that will get 20+" penetration in gel, while making a much larger hole than a .22 will. With the reliability of rimless centerfire ammunition.

If you want to step up to a big, full sized PMR-30 sized gun, the pistol is totally outclassed in terminal performance in it's size and price class by more powerful rimless centerfire weapons.

But, people love to hammer square pegs into round holes. Always have.

 

[Joe Demko]

Do you bother to read anything that doesn't agree with what you have already decided? Please address the issue of the mountain of .22lr auto pistols that are out there burning through oceans of ammo every single day. I own a bunch of them myself, and I will repeat: if the magazine is properly raked, the rim is not an issue.

 

[mesinge2]

The real issue is whether the gun is reliable.

This is what I am waiting to see...

 

[valorius]

Do you bother to read anything that doesn't agree with what you have already decided? Please address the issue of the mountain of .22lr auto pistols that are out there burning through oceans of ammo every single day. I own a bunch of them myself, and I will repeat: if the magazine is properly raked, the rim is not an issue.

Gee, my experience with .22 autoloaders, of which i've owned many, is that they jam far more often than centerfire rimless autoloading pistols do. Irregardless of the misfire issue. They just jam more.

Do you read anything that disagrees with what you have already decided?

 

[Joe Demko]

Irregardless? You mean regardless or irrespective.

You need to be more specific than saying "they jam more often" or there is no point in continuing to listen to you. What do you mean by "jams?" Failure to feed? Failure to extract? Something else? Are these jams, in fact, caused by the rimmed design we are specifically discussing? Which pistols were you using when you experienced all these "jams?"
See, I have a Ruger Standard Automatic here that my dad bought in the early 1970's when I was a still a kid. It's at least 35 years old. I have a Ruger Mark II I bought myself in the late 80's. Both of them run nearly flawlessly. When they do fail, it is typically due to an out of spec (e.g. bent) round or the accumulated filth of marathon shooting sessions when we have company. I, literally, cannot think of a single malfunction attributable to the rim on a .22 lr. I also owned an Olympic Arms Wolverine that would seldom fire two shots in a row without a malfunction. That had everything to do with a vestigial feed ramp and crap magazines, but not a thing to do with the rim.

So, I breathlessly await your new, focused response.

 

[GLOOB]

I have yet to have a failure with my MKIII, and I started shooting it right after I bought it, no cleaning no lube. It's had about a thousand rounds so far, with 1 cleaning.

I've also gone well over a thousand problem free rounds through a lowly Phoenix HP22A. The only rare jams are failures to return to all the way to battery when I let my thumb ride the slide on that little gun.

If the gun cycles, feeds, and ejects, properly, I wouldn't waste any worry about ammo-related failure. I've had a single dud .22LR round in 2 years. I've also had a bad .45 ACP round that wouldn't even fit in the chamber, and one of my shooting buddies had a squib .380 last month. But we shot at least 4 times as much .22 as either of the other calibers. So maybe some other people buy the wrong stuff and shoot it out of a gun that's worse than a Phoenix Arms potmetal SNS. Or maybe they don't know how to take care of their guns. But by my count .22LR is just fine. Statistically, there will be more overall problems with your average center-fire auto pistol than I've seen .22 ammo-related misfires. I'm sure .22WMR is even better.

 

[evan price]

Right, because that guy who is firing back at you with 9mm or .357 magnum or whatever other centerfire cartridge isn't going to drop you dead where you stand after his first doubletap. 1300fps for a 30gr bullet is barely 100fpe of energy. You'd be better off (literally) stabbing your opponent.

Oh, certainly, I agree there! I only carry a .22 WMR in my NAA Mini, and that's hardly a gun at all, a BUG or a gun carried when one can't carry a "real" gun. My own testing of various 22 WMRs through my Ruger Single-Six and NAA Mini showed a disturbing lack of effect on targets like cardboard boxes and paper cups other than a tiny hole. I subscribe to more air in, more blood out = better. I don't carry for primary CCW anything smaller than 9x19 124+P.

However, for people who can't take any recoil, it'd be an interesting choice for a PMR-30 loaded with 40gr Maxi-Mags or 50-gr Game-Shoks.

 

[valorius]

Well, one thing you notice immediately on these forums, is that everybody has fired "thousands of rounds through my X model, and its never failed."

I guess when i go to the range and see people having misfeeding problems with various firearms, it must just be them...and me....that have these problems. I've seen S&W autos jam, Glocks jam, berettas jam, 1911s jam, and all manner of .22s jam. I even saw a P7 jam once.

I've fired countless .22 autos in my lifetime, and all of them have jammed at least a couple times if i shot them enough to put more than a couple hundred rounds through them. Some of them jammed constantly with ammo they didn't like. A few of them jammed regardless of the ammo i tried to use in them. Some liked to stovepipe, others liked to fail to extract, others liked to double feed, others liked to not chamber properly. And all of them would have occasional misfires.

I had a Ruger Mk III. It would jam if i didn't keep it clean and use ammo it liked.
I had a Ruger 10/22. It would jam if i didn't keep it clean and use ammo it liked.
I had a Marlin Model 60. It would jam for no apparent reason at least 1x per box. regardless of brand.
I had a Remington (cant remember the model- i returned it shortly after i bought it), and it jammed as a matter of habit.
And all of them had misfires on occasion with good ammo, and frequently with the crap bulk ammo.
I know a guy that shot himself in the calf trying to clear a jam on his Ruger Mk III. Whoops.

Irregardless? You mean regardless or irrespective.

Figure it out.

 

[Joe Demko]

I never said my .22's don't malfunction. In fact, I said they did malfunction when ammo was out of spec or the gun extremely dirty. You wanted to make this about rimmed cartridges not feeding in autos, so I asked you specifically to address that. You just don't have anything substantive to say about the supposed problem with the rim in .22lr's, I guess. Good day to you, then, I've heard enough of your song that I don't need to hear it again.

 

[GLOOB]

Well, one thing you notice immediately on these forums, is that everybody has fired "thousands of rounds through my X model, and its never failed."

I'm sure that this has happened, and I'm also sure that some people may or may not be stretching the truth. But at least in my case, to be clear, I stated that the last thousand or so rounds fired without issue through my HP22. I did not say the gun never failed.

See, I agree. The world isn't perfect. Guns sometimes have problems. In fact, my HP22 was a jam-o-matic out of the box. It had ejection and extraction issues. But instead of whining about how horrible all .22's are, I fixed it.

So, can anyone here regale us with stories of the unreliability of .22 WMR?

I have had .22 WMR factory ammo fail to go bang for me while hunting a couple times.

I wish someone else, other than Valorius, would back that up.

 

[valorius]

Well my friend, do a google search, and you will see plenty of people back that up.

http://www.google.com/search?q=.22w...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Just one example:

Remington 597 Mis-fire/Fail to Fire - Georgia Outdoor News Forum
5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Feb 1
Remington 597 Mis-fire/Fail to Fire Gunsmithing Discussion and Tips. ... 597 semi-auto in 22WMR that misfires/fails to fire about 80-90% of the time. .... Member Help Forum, Deer and Small Game Hunting and Trail Cams ...
forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=4578133 - Cached - Similar

And another:

.22 magnum guys sound off.... - Gun and Game Forums
20 posts - 14 authors - Last post: Jun 11, 2008
I got a Savage 93G wood stock .22 Magnum with accutrigger a few months ago and it's a blast to shoot. I had some misfires with Winchester Dynapoint 45 gr. ammo but it likes CCI Maxi-Mags and Federal FMJ'S.

------

Google is a wonderful thing. There you can read all about people having misfires with their .22WMR rifles and ammunition.

Frankly, it amazes me that some people need to be convinced that a rimfire autoloader is not as reliable as a centerfire rimless autoloader.

 

[GLOOB]

LOL. Those are clearly problems with the gun. It's no surprise there are plenty of fools out there that don't know how to clean a gun. It used to frustrate me how mechanically inept most human beings are. But now I just take it for granted.

 

[valorius]

The second link is in no way gun related.

.22 magnum guys sound off.... - Gun and Game Forums
20 posts - 14 authors - Last post: Jun 11, 2008
I got a Savage 93G wood stock .22 Magnum with accutrigger a few months ago and it's a blast to shoot. I had some misfires with Winchester Dynapoint 45 gr. ammo but it likes CCI Maxi-Mags and Federal FMJ'S.

 

[Bullseye_shooter]

The .22 Magnum is a powerful enough round, the main problem is that rimfire is infamously known to have many misfires due to bad primers id stick with centerfire

id rather have 17 rounds of 9mm in a glock for example

 

[GLOOB]

I think nearly everyone would rather have a GLOCK. But some of us already have GLOCKs and are going to buy this gun, anyway.

On an unrelated note, here's a vid that might make you wonder if .22LR might be a half decent SD caliber in the right gun. I promise it'll at least put a smile on your face!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS31Gm9tIig&feature=related

It sounds a little like a lawnmower, eh?

 

[valorius]

If you want the features of this gun you can have them in a centerfire rimless cartridge chambered auto pistol that holds just as many rounds, also has very low recoil, but that can hit 2000fps and 300+fpe of energy, one that will blow through class II armor with ease, while also demonstrating 5.56mm type fragmentation with some loads. And it's got a great trigger and very good accuracy to boot.

You just have to spend $850.00....

I was just shooting a friend's brand new FN Five Seven tonight. That pistol is no joke.

 

[Manco]

Well, one thing you notice immediately on these forums, is that everybody has fired "thousands of rounds through my X model, and its never failed."

I guess when i go to the range and see people having misfeeding problems with various firearms, it must just be them...and me....that have these problems.

Well, I truly have with one gun--nearly 2000 rounds with zero malfunctions now--and it happens to be my defensive handgun, an M&P40. Others have jammed on me, sometimes before reaching the 50-round mark. I've never had luck with the several .22 LR autoloaders I've tried--sometimes they even jam more than once per magazine. Although some designs may be more reliable than others, and the quality control of some manufacturers may be better than that of others, ultimately it comes down to the individual gun. And of course, each individual cartridge also plays a part. Even my defensive handgun could have malfunctioned at any point if it had been fed a defective cartridge, so some luck was definitely involved in its current record (and as always), but you won't see me having to clear it all the time at the range, either.

I've seen S&W autos jam, Glocks jam, berettas jam, 1911s jam, and all manner of .22s jam. I even saw a P7 jam once.

I've seen many jam, too, and sometimes can't believe how much trouble a particular gun is having, but the gun that I depend on is more reliable--if it were not, then I wouldn't depend on it until it was made reliable, or else I'd try a different gun.

I've fired countless .22 autos in my lifetime, and all of them have jammed at least a couple times if i shot them enough to put more than a couple hundred rounds through them. Some of them jammed constantly with ammo they didn't like. A few of them jammed regardless of the ammo i tried to use in them. Some liked to stovepipe, others liked to fail to extract, others liked to double feed, others liked to not chamber properly. And all of them would have occasional misfires.

Now here is where caliber can also contribute to the problem. With such light recoil to work with, one might reasonably expect that .22 LR autoloaders would have more reliability issues in general. I don't have nearly as much experience with .22 LR handguns as you or many others, although I've fired more than a few .22 LR rounds already, and my luck with autoloaders in this caliber has been all bad so far. They were rental guns, so I suppose that would help explain why, but rental Glocks don't jam constantly on me like this, so it must tell us something. .22 LR revolvers have been great for me, though, so ignition is not the main issue by any means. I've had enough misfires from Remington bulk ammo to avoid it altogether, and all bulk ammo will have duds from time to time, but some .22 LR loads seem to ignite as reliably as centerfire ammo in revolvers.

Up to now, reliability seems to have been an issue with .22 WMR autoloaders as well, but there haven't been many, and we'll have to wait and see with a new design coming out.

I had a Ruger Mk III. It would jam if i didn't keep it clean and use ammo it liked.

If you baby them, then they may well be fairly reliable, but I'd hesitate to use them (or any .22 LR autoloader) as a defensive weapon, unless it was all I had handy, of course. Revolvers, on the other hand, obviously avoid most jamming issues, and they are what I have in mind when discussing the defensive use of .22 LR, by the way.

Figure it out.

Like I said, some individual guns are more reliable out of the box than others, and maybe some of us have come across a really good one or few, just by luck. Some can become reliable after breaking in or with the help of gunsmithing, and others are lemons to a varying degree, I guess.

If you want the features of this gun you can have them in a centerfire rimless cartridge chambered auto pistol that holds just as many rounds, also has very low recoil, but that can hit 2000fps and 300+fpe of energy, one that will blow through class II armor with ease, while also demonstrating 5.56mm type fragmentation with some loads. And it's got a great trigger and very good accuracy to boot.

You just have to spend $850.00....

I was just shooting a friend's brand new FN Five Seven tonight. That pistol is no joke.

Oh please, haven't we been over this already? While I'm not saying that the Five-seveN is a joke by any means, the "5.56mm type fragmentation" you're referring to is actually a bad thing because 5.7mm doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as 5.56mm--it simply lacks the kinetic energy to wound like a centerfire rifle does, and the fragmentation only hurts its already mediocre penetration performance even more (other loads that do not fragment generally do not penetrate much more than 10" at the most, and many shots are under 9").

 

[valorius]

The Elite Ammunition co. offerings in 5.7 are MUCH hotter than the anemic FN stuff, and it is more than 2x as powerful as the impotent .22WMR coming out of a pistol barrel (probably closer to 3x more powerful)

Their V-max at 2000+fps exhibits 5.56 type fragmentation in gel- the kind that causes large quantities of tissue detachment and destruction. Destruction far, far greater than anything you're ever going to find in .22WMR at pistol velocities.

There are videos on you tube of large feral pigs being taken in 1 shot with 5.7 in a hunting setting. And i'm not talking head shots.

There are also 55gr rounds that will surpass the FBI 12" penetration requirements. (Which would probably matter to me if i was an FBI agent...)

The round is no joke.

If it will kill a big feral pig in 1 shot, you or me should expect little better outcome.

The 5.7 is in an entirely different league than the .22WMR ballistically, and so is the Five Seven when compared to the PMR-30.

And it's a centerfire, and it's rimless. Oh...and it will blow through a class II vest like hot butter. EA's V-max at 2000fps will even blow through a class II vest.