Police arrive after apprehension...

[rmgill]

Don't try to cuff the guy. Don't try to get your wife to cuff the guy. Unless you're talking about waiting days for help to arrive you're better off NOT cuffing the guy. Too many ways for that to go wrong.

Better to hold the guy at gunpoint, have him lay down, cross his legs and not move. If he gets up and fails to follow your commands, you're going to have to decide if to shoot or not. But don't get close if you can avoid it.

This is why bayonets on a rifle or shotgun is good. Bayonets clearly and succinctly say, stay the hell back and where you're at.

 

[joab]

People will fight (or have a tendency to fight) someone who they feel may not have the authority to restrain them.

Well we've heard from the LEOs now one from the other side.

When I was in the army we had a small MP force so EMs were attached from other over manned units. These privates had no police powers and were not much more than gate greeters. For anything serious they were supposed to call in the real MPs.

One of them stopped me while I was walking home from a 72 hour guard duty. I was suspected of escaping from CCF.
The guy overstepped his authority by searching me but I wanted to go home and figured complying would get me there quicker.
I kept telling him that all he had to do was call my unit to confirm my story, he kept telling me to shut up.
Then he told me that he was going to handcuff me for my protection as well his.
Maybe the sleep deprivation set in or maybe he just irritated me by the way he fumbled through the handcuffing explanation, having to stop and start over twice, but I wasn't cuffed and he wasn't protected.
When the real MPs showed up I was trying to cuff one of the fakers, it is a lot harder than it looks, and the other was trying to cough his testicles back down.
I was 6' and about 170 lbs, nowhere near a bad ass just having a bad day.

By the way the escapee was a 5 foot tall black female.

Point is a criminal is not going to let an unauthorized person cuff him for the same reason one of us would not let an unauthorized person cuff us.
I am not going to be rendered helpless and at the mercy of someone who does not have the authority to put me in that position

 

[Coronach]

Let's assume a few things.

1. Non (or barely) compliant suspect.

Hold him at gunpoint until the police arrive. DO NOT attempt to restrain him. Just hold him there, as best you can, with the threat of deadly force. If he runs, he runs- be sure you can give a description. If he makes the proverbial false move, and you can articulate a perceived deadly threat, take appropriate steps to stop the threat. Tell the dispatcher you are holding one at gunpoint. Describe yourself. Describe the BG. Try to have the gun at the very least at low ready when the LEOs arrive (unless you cannot due to his actions)- preferably have it holstered or out of hand.

Do what the officer says.

2. Compliant suspect.

Hold him at gunpoint until the police arrive. DO NOT attempt to restrain him. Just hold him there, with the threat of deadly force. Order him to face away from you, go down on his knees and place his hands on his head. If he looks back at you, tell him, again, to face away from you and not look back. Change your position, if possible, and keep the gun trained on him. Tell the dispatcher you are holding one at gunpoint. Describe yourself. Describe the BG. Since the BG is looking away from you, you can more safely go to low ready, holstered, or gun out-of-hand when the cops show up. Remember though, suspects tend to not listen to instructions very well...at this point, they're having a pretty bad day, and will be doing everything possible to make it better, including try to talk to you, plead with you, look at you, get up, put down their hands, edge towards the door, etc etc etc. So don't let your guard down early.

And, most importantly,

Do what the officer says.

Of course, all of this can change based upon the situation. Common sense rules the day. Remember, the officer has no clue who is the BG and who is the GG. Every cop I know has gone to at least one run where the "victim" just happened to be the guy who called 911 first. This includes burglaries. People scoff all the time and say, "sure, who calls 911 and says someone is breaking into their place and sticks around for the cops if he's not the homeowner." An experienced cop will say "lots of people"- and he won't be lying. Think of the most Jerry Springer-worthy domestic screwed up situations...we go to those. So, until we know who is who, everyone gets out of the pool.

Oh, and remember the +1 Rule. You found one BG. Are there more? How do you know? Have you cleared the house? If you're busy holding BG #1 at gunpoint, that answer would be "no."

Mike

 

[sacp81170a]

Order him to face away from you, go down on his knees and place his hands on his head.

Not saying this is a bad thing to do, just a point you might want to consider: In some cultures south of the border, this is the typical execution position. If you ask someone from one of those areas to do this, he might get more than a little upset, especially if his understanding of English isn't so good. We've briefed and talked about this at roll call a couple times. It might be better to prone the guy out if that's the case. Anyone else aware of this?

Also, if the guy doesn't understand English(or pretends not to, it happens all the time) don't let your concentration be thrown off. You can still make it clear what you want him to do. Might not be a bad idea to learn a few simple commands in Spanish or whatever language other than English the local population might be likely to speak... it might throw *him* off.

 

[sacp81170a]

This is why bayonets on a rifle or shotgun is good. Bayonets clearly and succinctly say, stay the hell back and where you're at.

Ain't nothin' looks badder than a 12 gauge pump with a pig sticker on it!! Can you say, "Ultimate CQB Tool?" I knew you could...

Overseas we used to put a guy at the gate to back up the gate guard carrying a 590 with a bayonet during alerts. Ugly lookin' thang, dontcha know...

 

[outlawgunslnger]

keep himcovered and facing away from you. make sure the dispatcher tells the first responder that you are armed and in your house. don't want the the LEO to mistake you for the BG

 

[oh blanky]

That's why I live in FL or TN where the law affirms my God given right to assume like any reasonable person that a home invader has shown lethal intent against me and mine by his presence.

BG made his decision when he came in.

 

[Jeff White]

We're not going down this road again

Oh blanky,
I somehow doubt if Florida's Stand your Ground law will protect you from criminal and civil penalties for an execution.

A lot can be determined from the physical evidence at the scene.

Florida's law doesn't stop an investigation of the death. It simply gives you certain protections.

Currently the line as to what's reasonable and what's not hasn't been drawn. Do you want to be the test case? I'd strongly recommend against shooting someone who throws his hands up when confronted.

Sooner or later there will be case law clarifying what the law really means. A homeowner will shoot someone and the scene won't match his story. Then....It's anyone's guess.

Jeff

Jeff

 

[Tim G.]

I work at a government facility and we are not allowed to bring weapons on the premise at all. So three of us share the rent on a climate controlled storage room a half mile down the road from work. Yeah, yeah, sort of a pain in the ass, extra time as well as planning to stop on the way to/from work, but being, well anywhere, in Memphis at night (we work 1500-2330) without a firearm just doesn’t give us the warm and fuzzy. There is a point to all this...


So one of the other guys wife asks him to stop and get something from the grocery store. Not an uncommon request for Phil, as he has a <2 year old and they live kind of out in BFE. So for Phil this is pretty much a routine. On this night however it was dog food.


Phil pulls into the parking lot with his truck at the grocery store and parks next to a car where the couple is loading up their car. As he puts it in park and shuts of his truck and notices the ladies face has the look of shock. Phil kind of shrugs it off and gets out of and starts walking to the back of his truck. It is then that Phil realizes that the “couple” does not “compute.” He takes greater interest and notices the guy has a large screwdriver pushed up against the ladies rib cage.

Phil draws his weapon and tells the guy to drop it. After some conversation they guy says “WHUT IS YOU GOIN’T’DO, SHOOT ME?” You would have to know Phil, but he does a one shoulder shrug and says, “I might.”

The people inside the store saw the lady in the process of getting mugged and had called the police even before Phil showed up-- so police had no previous knowledge of Phil in anyway. When the three police cars arrived Phil had the guy on his knees with his hands locked behind his head and Phil had his gun pointed at the ready (basically the guy’s knees).

All the police exited their vehicles and drew on Phil and the BG. They told Phil to drop his weapon. Phil quickly told them that this was the BG and that he was a permit holder. Phil stated that he was going to holster his weapon.

The police allowed him to do so, asked him to put his hands on the truck, and they came over and cuffed the BG and de-armed Phil. Phil immediately produced his permit.

Once they got the ladies story, his story, and some of the witnesses inside, they thanked Phil and returned his weapon.


Yeah there are a few LEO without much common sense (hey they're just people too), but the vast majority of them can make sense of a situation. If you have some puke detained in your living room and you are standing their in your BVDs there is little chance they are going to think you are the BG and just like robbing people in your underwear. If Phil was wearing “gansta-wear” or look like a “puke” in some other way when the police showed up things may have went differently. I would think that very few, VERY FEW, people on this board would have a problem.


/tg

 

[gunsmith]

I SURVIVED

a home invasion, I was unarmed and I
cooperated.
after I was securely tied up they stabbed me.
my plan today is to empty a 20 mag of .223
into the chest and head.
I will sue his family for the clean up expense.

 

[Liedorff]

Listen to the man

Listen to the man who said NOIt is a simple word---it needs no explanation---Just listen to the man who said NO and live to be an old man with an old wife. He has given you the best advice aviable. You can debate--you can figure out ways to restrain the guy--he will get you--I promise.
Just listen to the guy that said NO
Please?

 

[massad ayoob]

Liedorff is right. Jeff nailed it.

 

[BigO01]

Well this makes for interesting conversation but , the whole thing is rather pointless for me , you see I realy don't think a burglar or whatever is going to surrender to me .

My first line of home defense is a 80+ lb mixed breed named Buck "yes I read Call of The Wild" and for some odd reason he seems to realy like his family .
I've seen what a dog can do to a bruglar , and it isn't pretty so I'm guessing they are going to either A) leave in a BIG hurry or B) kill Buck which means they have a weapon "probably a gun" and then I am going to shoot them several times with either my 40 or 45 caliber handgun . With 6 people in the house who can shoot and enough guns to go around their life expectancy is pretty darn short in my house .

On another front it would be interesting to know if the last poster is THE massad ayoob or not .

 

[oh blanky]

Jeff White said:

We're not going down this road again

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh blanky,
I somehow doubt if Florida's Stand your Ground law will protect you from criminal and civil penalties for an execution.



Jeff

Which road? The one you just steered my comment down? You are being inflammatory in your statement. WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT AN EXECUTION!?

I feel for you that you live in an uncivilized state, but again; castle doctrine allows one to assume that a person entering forcefully and illegaly has shown intent to do serious bodily harm. Kinda makes sense doesn't it?



I am protected from civil liability as well.

I suggest you move out of Ill. ASAP.

 

[scooterthegreat]

Everytime I read through this thread I think of something a wonderfull old gentleman had said to me:

There are old bullfighters and there are bold bullfighters;
But there are very few old bold bullfighters.

I was pretty young when he told me that and I didn't really get it. Now that I am older, I don't think I go more than 2 days without further understanding what he meant.

 

[Biker]

Yeah, we have a similar saying.

"There are old Bikers and there are bold Bikers, but ya don't see many old, bold Bikers".

Very true...

Biker

 

[Jeff White]

oh blanky,
I suggest you actually read the law in your state. It is not a carte blanche license to shoot anyone in your home. Yes it says you may assume that the person who entered is a threat. However, I rather doubt if you shot the intruder after he raised his hands and begged you not to kill him, you're going to be in the clear.

The law doesn't stop an investigation into the circumstances of the shooting. It saya the police can't automatically arrest you at the scene.

I'm sorry, shooting anyone while they are surrendering to you, is executing them, regardless of what you think the law says.

The internet is a poor place to go for legal advice. I'd suggest that you call your local states attorney and ask him if he thought that Florida's castle doctrine law would protect you after you shot someone who was surrendering.

As for moving, we had castle doctrine a year before Florida did. You all are newcomers to the game.

No one is going to know exactly where the limits are until the law is tested in court. Again I ask, do you want to be the test case? Sooner or later it will happen.

The High Road's mission is to promote the responsible use of firearms. I don't believe that advocating shooting someone while they are surrendering to you is responsible.

Jeff

 

[fastbolt]

Hmmmm .....

Random thoughts ...

Having your wife go attempt to handcuff a 'suspect' is simply offering the suspect a convenient hostage. Your situation involving a potential threat to a loved one is now much worse, and the job of the local L/E is now much harder.

Handcuffing isn't a last-minute thought. It's one of the most dangerous things cops do.

People that decide they want to keep firearms in their homes for defensive purpose would do well to make a sincere effort to learn the laws governing the lawful use of deadly force, at the very least.

Be prepared, and understanding, that the arriving police may decide to secure the entire scene ... including the 'suspect', you (and your gun), your family, your dog, and then the rest of the house and premises (which may still harbor additional suspects) ... before they feel 'safe'. Please be understanding if they ask for someone to contain any dogs while they search the rest of the house and yard.

You might well imagine that some jail and prison cells have folks in them who thought that what they were doing wasn't illegal ...

Get real legal advice, from someone trained and licensed to dispense legal advice, before you're faced with such dire circumstances. Know what you may, and may not, do in different circumstances. Better yet, make sure your family knows, too. "Helping" at the wrong time ... isn't.

Be prepared to forget what you've 'learned' on TV, and on the internet ...

 

[BigO01]

Jeff , I do have just one question in regards to your discussion with Oh blanky and the whole castle doctrine thing , particularly this question of yours . "However, I rather doubt if you shot the intruder after he raised his hands and begged you not to kill him, you're going to be in the clear."

If the intruder has a weapon in his hands when confronted regardless of it being a knife or gun and he drops it and raises his hands to surrender , yet you "the homeowner" shoot him anyway what evidence is there to convict them of a crime ? If he had a knife they simply state they told them to stop and they didn't , a gun and they say it was raised in their direction and were forced to fire . The evidence is simply this , and intruder broke into the home had a weapon "finger prints on weapon will bear this out" and was shot for his actions people do drop things after being shot and that's a fact . Unless the home has video cameras or another member of the family witnesses what has happened it becomes the homeowners word against a dead mans or an armed criminals who chances are has a very long criminal record . All the homeowner has to do is NOT shoot them in the back .

Understand I am not by any means advocating this action that is indeed wrong and ilegal but it is a simple statement of fact as to what the Evidence will show .

 

[mmike87]

I work in a rural area and it's not uncommon to take custody of a a trespasser or other undersirable from a person holding him at gunpoint.

Is it legal in your area to hold a person at gunpoint for trespassing?

 

[sacp81170a]

All the homeowner has to do is NOT shoot them in the back .

All I gotta say is, you're dreamin'. If you have to start making up facts the chances are good that you're gonna start puttin' up red flags all over the place for a good investigator. Doing the right thing is the best course of action, since you won't have to remember any lies later on...

If you've never been directly involved in a police investigation I'd say that you're taking a *big* chance betting that your talent as a liar is better than an investigator's experience and training.

 

[beerslurpy]

Well hopefully your wife told the dispatcher that you are holding the badguy at gunpoint instead of a panicked "omg a man is robbing us *static* has a gun *click*." It would suck if an officer showed up and misinterpreted the scene. Still, even if there was a misunderstanding like that, it isnt likely the officer would open fire unless you responded to the "drop the gun" by pointing it at him or something similarly stupid.

Assuming there isnt some sort of misunderstanding about who is on which side, just do what the cops says. I mean, you havent broken the law and the cops main interest is going to be carting off the intruder with a minimum of hassle.

Congratulations, you foiled a burglarly without firing any shots or risking any lawsuits or grand jury time. I think the real challenging scenario is when the cops respond to "shots fired" and you have a bullet riddled corpse in your living room and are holding an EBR when they show up. Omg billable time. Still, behaving non-provacatively and following their instructions should be sufficient to avoid a gunfight.

 

[Jeff White]

BigO01,
It would be silly to speculate on what the evidence will show. I can tell you that a good forensics person can tell a lot from things like blood spatter, not only on walls but on people, furniture, pets. Not all scenes will look like the Tate/LaBianca murders the Manson clan pulled off. But there will often be splatter that's not readily apparent to the naked eye.

They are also going to be able to tell what angles shots were made from and place the shooter pretty much where he actually was.

Cook up a story that doesn't match the physical evidence and you can say castle law all as much as you want till they strap you down on the gurney and give you the last IV. Or lock you up for 15 to life.

If the burglar did say don't shoot me and you had other people in the house, are they willing to commit perjury to keep you out of trouble and carry that secret to their grave?

Just some things to think about as you contemplate shooting anyone in your home because the law says you can.

mmMike87,
Yes it's legal here. You are essentially making a citizens arrest and detaining the person for the police. But just like everything else in the law, there are exceptions. If you held the meter reader from the gas company at gunpoint, you could probably expect to be charged with unlawful restraint, because he has a legal right to be there to read your meter. So I'd make sure it was really a trespasser before I started waving a gun around.

Jeff

 

[JohnKSa]

If the burglar did say don't shoot me and you had other people in the house, are they willing to commit perjury to keep you out of trouble and carry that secret to their grave?

If anyone is on the phone to 911 during the incident, the 911 recording may have all the evidence they need to convict.

 

[joab]

The only thing that the new Stand Your Ground castle extension did was to relieve the victim of the burden of proving that he had no reasonable retreat and to codify what the DAs were already instructed to do under our constitution, which was to liberally construe the law in favor of the home owner.

It did not give us the license to kill that the antis have portrayed and that some of us have embraced

Simply put it gives the victim the benefit of doubt not carte blanch

And Jeff
The law is being tested some what in Tampa now, sort of.

A tow truck driver is claiming that a group of men tried to run him down while trying to reclaim their towed car from an impound yard.
He fired into the car killing the driver
There is some speculation and/or evidence that some of the shots came from the side and rear
If so his defense has no merit and 10-20 Life should apply