Police: Clerk "...did just what he should have done..." but still dead

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Now that I am a business owner of a small community convenience/grocery store, I have to do what I think is best for the safety of my employees & family in the store & my customers. For me it is being openly armed & well trained to handle the firearm in an emergency confrontation. The hiding of guns from most peoples view has made us too comfortable with the idea that someone will save us from the bad guys.
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How about start with making the counter bulletproof? maybe I'm being naive, but it shouldn't be that hard to do nor expensive. Give the poor employee real cover to duck behind rather than just concealment. And make sure they know about it.
 
Where I live, there have been several defensive shootings, often during armed robberies. None of them have resulted in prosecution of the defender. If the bad guy or his relatives sued, it hasn't made the news. The victim of an armed robbery is presumed to be in sufficient danger to justify defending himself with deadly force. He isn't expected to distinguish between "harmless" armed robbers and "dangerous" ones. They are all presumed to be dangerous.

Suppose you are accosted on the street by a robber who shows a gun and demands your wallet. Rather than comply, you turn and run. The frustrated robber fires at you, misses and kills the little girl Yoda mentioned. Are you culpable, legally or morally? Of course not!
 
Kendahl...

If you bolted and ran, and the bad guy fired at you and hit an innocent party, then I think there would no legal or moral burden on you. But if you "prompted" a bad guy to shoot when it wasn't absolutely certain that he would have started shooting anyway, and a child were hit, then even if your conscience were clean, a jury might have another view.

I'm not saying you are wrong. There are, however, fine distinctions that the average man from the street sitting in a jury box might make, even if our own self-defense doctrine boils down to a simple "shoot-don't shoot" decision tree.

- - - Yoda
 
How about start with making the counter bulletproof? maybe I'm being naive, but it shouldn't be that hard to do nor expensive. Give the poor employee real cover to duck behind rather than just concealment. And make sure they know about it.
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An interesting suggestion, but the economics of it aren't very feasible. The modification would be an enormous expense on me. And I've incurred many since buying this business in June of this yr.

In this type of business, which isn't your typical chain retailer with hundreds of corner locations, the very nature of it demands a certain amount of mingling with the customer. That is really my only advantage against those larger chains. Location helps & the fact that I have no chain retailer as competition. So in my case that leaves making everyone who enters aware of the security measures we take on the premises, both with electronic surveillance & with firearms on our person, to hopefully deter the threat before it begins.
 
Gunsmith... appreciate your situation, here's what some store owners did in places where I worked.

You're quite right that bulletproofing a counter area can be expensive but there are a few cheap mods you can make that might be useful. The one I saw the most was using old telephone books (triple layered) up inside a counter area where they could not be seen. They provided an additional six to eight inches of barrier between the front face of that counter area and any rounds that might be coming your way in the event of a shooting situation. The folks that I knew didn't try to protect the entire counter area just a three or four foot wide invisible bunker area. The old books (each two to three inches) started at the floor level and were stacked on top of each other all the way up to the top of the counter (these were wooden counters, not glass so you couldn't see that there was anything there at all). Once the phone books were in place, then a second full row, and finally a third - all were held in place by simple wooden slats that connected a run of light chicken wire to hold the wall of books right where you wanted them.

No, this improvised bullet proofing wouldn't stop any rifle round.... and some magnum pistol rounds, but most convenience store stick up guys aren't exactly carrying heavy weapons... Once you train your family or employees to move to where they have some protection I think you greatly improve your chances of making it through a violent encounter. This isn't all that's needed but anything is better than being behind a thin wooden counter if things go bad...
 
You're quite right that bulletproofing a counter area can be expensive but there are a few cheap mods you can make that might be useful. The one I saw the most was using old telephone books (triple layered) up inside a counter area where they could not be seen.
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Concrete is cheap and can be cast into a reinforced sheet (~3") which would do a great job of providing some real cover. This is something that could be done for ~$100 in your back yard.
 
Concrete is cheap and can be cast into a reinforced sheet (~3") which would do a great job of providing some real cover. This is something that could be done for ~$100 in your back yard.
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Thank you Sam1911!

Now this suggestion I like. I've spent a great deal of money & man hrs building/installing cabinetry behind the counter for tobacco & medicinal goods that are easily pick pocketed. So for the most part the under counter space has some electronic wiring for telephones/fax/video recording gear/customer WiFi. Other than that wiring & grocery bags it's empty space. I could probably easily work around that & provide access to it for repair if needed. A trip to my nearby Lowe's is in order.

An excellent suggestion. Thx again!
 
This will be heavy, of course, but you make it as a set of smaller (1'x3'?) panels that you could lift into place in a rough frame of 2x4s. Add a bit of welded-wire mesh reinforcing mat and it should survive handling and be quite bullet-resistant.
 
I have not seen a video of how it went down. But sounds like once he was no longer 'under the gun', he should have pulled his weapon and be prepared to fire instantly.

This just serves to further show evidence of the MYTH that simply because a thug has his back to you at one moment, he is no longer a threat.

In a particular state, you may not be able to shoot a thug. But you should be ready incase he turns around agian.
 
Posted by k_dawg: But sounds like once he was no longer 'under the gun', he should have pulled his weapon and be prepared to fire instantly.
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7-11 clerk. See post 45.

Best suggestion, I think, is in Post 21.
 
I was thinking reinforce about 5' of the counter with sheets of 1/4" or thicker steel and 1/2" HardyBoard™. Don't need a bulletproof window (they are so impersonal anyway), just duck down behind the hardened section. Extra points if you have a shotgun back there ;)
 
Up to the individual

BUT as for me,I train to shoot the threat AS SOON AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.

Of course I will have to say [ for those that nit pick ] that I will try VERY hard to be the only target and to not draw to a weapon aimed/pointed at me.

But if I find out afterwards that I shot a perp with a fake gun [ came TOO close while on duty ] I have decided that I can live with that.

I feel VERY,VERY threatened with a weapon that is close enough to be of harm to me,close enough means I am now legally, [ more importantly to me ] morally allowed to use DPF to save my life.

We all should have a "line in the sand" mentality as to when and where you will 'go for it'.

And if you decide to take action,dont hesitate as the other guy [ perp ] will not.

Have a plan ,and then a back up plan as your first plan went to hell in a handbucket.

I pray to not be put in this position,then I pray that if it happens = to be the victor.
 
Did the clerk just stand at the counter waiting as the gunmen left?

Even if you decide to not shoot back, surely it is smart to find cover or concealment. Had the clerk dropped to the floor behind the counter as soon as the gunmen were heading out, would they have still shot him? Probably not.
 
Sad Folks need to stop working and shopping at 7/11 till they either armor up the Counter area to protect thier employees or let them carry.
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Why limit to 7/11? This would go for every type of establishment that might be robbed, every profession where employees might get targeted. This isn't a problem about 7/11, though 7/11 may have the problem as well.

About 13% of the time, compliant victims still get hurt. 87% of the time, compliance works just fine, however. If I got 13% odds on the lottery, I would play every day.
 
My opinion mixed in with some facts

If given the opportunity. Take out the BG.
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Odds that the clerk or another innocent person will be killed by the robber(s) in an armed robbery regardless of the level of cooperation. About 1 in 100.

Odds that the clerk or another innocent person will be injured by the robber(s) in an armed robbery regardless of the level of cooperation. About 13%.

I'd hate to have to shoot someone just because there was a 1 in a hundred chance they'd kill me or another innocent person but it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
 
Please remember, if you must shoot, when the police arrive follow all their instructions and be totally compliant. BUT NEVER answer any questions or make any statements until you meet first with your attorney
 
He may have been covered during most of the robbery.
Then had an opportunity when they were leaving for the first time.

The bad guys were then leaving.
Shooting a bad guy leaving can and often does result in a conviction because the threat is often going to legally be considered not immediate anymore.
Shooting a bad guy walking out the door with cash while on camera is even more likely to result in conviction because it is now more media worthy and so will have more calls for conviction.



Really by that point the store owner may have been screwed either way.
Dead for doing nothing, and a good chance at prison had he shot them before the bad guy turned and fired at him, because he fired after the immediate threat would be considered over by most prosecutors and many jurors.




FBI statistics are something like 13% of all victims that comply are murdered anyways.
So in more than one in eight instances where the victim complies completely they are killed anyways.
(And killed in a higher percentage of cases where they do not comply.)
Now consider some stores in and around bad low income areas get robbed fairly often.
 
BUT NEVER answer any questions or make any statements until you meet first with your attorney
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We've had some good threads about what you SHOULD say and what you shouldn't. It isn't quite so simple as "shut up." But that seems like a side discussion, here.
 
I don’t know why there is even a discussion about CCW and working at a store like Seven-11. Corporate policy is that employees are not allowed to carry guns :
http://hamptonroads.com/2012/01/pol...ted-robber-virginia-beach#comment-1256508/url
“7-Eleven prohibits carrying firearms into its stores and instructs employees against confronting robbers, company spokeswoman Margaret Chabris”

No matter you think, try to save your life, you will be fired.

A corporation is an amoral organization that only exists to maximize profits. If a corporation sanctions its employees to carry weapons, authorizes them to do something which might hurt anyone, then they are liable for a lawsuit and a big settlement.

If however, it forbids its employees to do anything but act passively, if an employee is killed, then society bares the costs. Law enforcement comes in, takes the body away, the family loses its breadwinner, but the Corporation owes nobody anything.

From a profit/loss viewpoint, they come out ahead.

Just Google the news and you will find other 7-11 clerks killed this month, other robberies where the crooks fired shots at the 7-11 employees, it is evident not only is this a risky job, but that a pile of dead employees is not objectionable to the company.

I don't know if 7-11 has Dead Peasant policies, but a number of companies do. Companies take out a life insurance policy on employees, but with a twist. If an employee dies, the company gets the benefits.
 
I don’t know why there is even a discussion about CCW and working at a store like Seven-11. Corporate policy is that employees are not allowed to carry guns :
...
No matter you think, try to save your life, you will be fired.
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Hmmm...minimum wage job that's considered the one of the highest risk occupations due to violent crime...

Now if I carry a weapon I could get FIRED! (Oh noes!!11!)

If I DON'T carry a weapon I might get something ever so slightly worse than losing a minimum wage job, like dead.

Doesn't really seem to be a tough call, to me.
 
Speaking from experience, no there are no clues. Nothing is ever done the exact same way twice.
Anything can go wrong and cause a change to occur in a plan.
Things just happen, that can cause one or more perps to just flip out and start shooting, maybe they thought someone knew them or saw somthing that spooked them, you can never be sure, assume you are in the worse position and work from there, if you have the oppertunity to get your gun, do so, if there are more than 1, shoot each armed man once and go back for follow up shots, you don't want to shoot one guy 3 times and allow the others to shoot you, if possible, and move as you shoot. Again this is if things go south, if they are in and out then just stay down, but anyone approaching me with gun in hand making threats or threatining jestures is going to be fired on. Remember it's not not a movie, chances are after a shot goes off, they are out the nearest exit as fast as possible.Try and get yourself behind solid cover, like a metal freezer not a shelf or glass counter.Also try to remember how many men you saw come in, as you don't want to let someone get around in back of you thinking they were a customer. Also don't forget that you aren't thinking the same way as normal if this kind of thing happens to you. You are experiencing tunnel vision, fight or flight response is kicking in. Guys who are more experienced than I can learn to control this to varying degrees, but the normal guy, no way. Your blood vessles are constricting, You are going into survival mode, so much of what has been said, won't matter. Your thinking dynamics will change and you will not have the ability to reason all of this out as we can discuss it now. That's why training is so important, so you have something to fall back on. All of the simple sounding things we talk about become difficult under these circumstances, thats' why many times people don't remember what really happened. How many attackers were there, what did they look like, become difficult questions to answer when your survival instincts take over.
You may not remember things for weeks maybe some you will never remember. The bad guys came in knowing what they intended to do, you didn't.I am going to list the fight or flight responses that can occur during such an incident, just to show what is going on during a robbery. From Wikipedia:
Acceleration of heart and lung action
Paling or flushing, or alternating between both
Inhibition of stomach and upper-intestinal action to the point where digestion slows down or stops
General effect on the sphincters of the body
Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the body
Liberation of nutrients (particularly fat and glucose) for muscular action
Dilation of blood vessels for muscles
Inhibition of the lacrimal gland (responsible for tear production) and salivation
Dilation of pupil (mydriasis)
Relaxation of bladder
Auditory exclusion (loss of hearing)
Tunnel vision (loss of peripheral vision)
Disinhibition of spinal reflexes
Shaking
There are many more things happening at the same time, you can google them under fight or flight resonses, and get a bigger picture.
Don't forget this is happening in a matter of seconds, it's not like you can sit down and figure out a plan.
 
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