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Police in arms race with crooks?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by roguejestyr, Mar 23, 2008.

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  1. roguejestyr

    roguejestyr Member

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  2. JWarren

    JWarren Member

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    *I'm* in an arms race with the crooks-- why should they be any different?


    -- John
     
  3. foreveryoung001

    foreveryoung001 Member

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    Quote from article:

    I love how they throw out this line as fact, but then do nothing in the way of backing up the claim. The only numbers they use in the article are related to overall shootings and do nothing to break down the numbers to prove their point... I can only think that they avoid those numbers because they aren't there.

    I don't care if LEO's use AR'15... in fact it may help eliminate some of the scumbags out there, but the author really should get their facts straight before throwing out a line like this.
     
  4. novaDAK

    novaDAK Member

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    LEOs should have access to the best equipment available.

    So should every law abiding citizen as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2008
  5. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    Police achieved parity in personal armament with crooks years ago. :rolleyes:
     
  6. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    When she pointed her handgun at the two nearest deputies, officers switched to accurate semi automatic rifles, hitting Sarah Marie Stanfield of Boise eight times with bullets designed to break apart on impact to reduce the chances of injuring innocent bystanders. She died last fall of multiple gunshot wounds.

    There, fixed it for him. Enough on the obvious bias of the article, on to the inaccuracy.

    Arming patrol officers with semi automatic rifles firing an intermediate cartridge has been going on since the days of Bonnie and Clyde. More recently, this process has been given more impetus by the Miami shootout and the bank robbery in California, where the BG's outgunned the police and in the one case wore body armor.

    The sky is not falling, but sensationalist reporters don't care if it makes the story more dramatic. Carry on.

    I agree completely.

    This part in particular is a total fabrication. I smell male bovine excrement.
     
  7. Sans Authoritas

    Sans Authoritas member

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    The Lone Haranguer wrote:
    Zing! Subtle... I like.

    -Sans Authoritas
     
  8. TCB in TN

    TCB in TN Member

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    That souns about right to me!

    I would like to see a study on the % of time that average officers are really "out gunned", I would be willing to bet that it occurs so infrequently as to be statisticly insignificant!
     
  9. R127

    R127 Member

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    Arms race with criminals? hahaha. Try "buying lots of cool stuff at every opportunity because of new funding available thanks to DHS." This is money that is marked to help "fight terrorism." Since America does not have a terrorism problem there aren't any terrorists to fight so things like H.R. 1955 " Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007" need to be invented to make average Americans into terrorists so people like DHS and TSA can justify their existence and the DHS money can continue to enable police departments across the country to buy cool gadgets. Terror has become an industry in our paranoid security state and it has taken on a life of its own.
     
  10. papajohn

    papajohn Member

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    Yeah, funny how there's no source listed for that last bit of fecal matter. I'm thinking it came right out the reporter's arse, where his brain stays.

    I don't have a problem with cops carrying AR's and the like, my last PD did it in '96, I'm actually surprised they don't ALL have patrol rifles by now. Jeff Copper once opined that the perfect Patrol Rifle was a 30-30 levergun. Easy to shoot, powerful enough to reach several hundred yards if called upon, and simple to operate, even for officers who aren't very "gunny". But my chief said no. :cuss:

    Personally, I think everyone should have an AR, except for those who legally can't, or shouldn't. I also happen to believe that public shooting matches with those same rifles should be mandated, just like in Switzerland. If you can't qualify with it, you can't keep it. Funny how nobody has screwed with Switzerland since the Dark Ages.....................:neener:

    Papajohn
     
  11. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    I thought the NFA - passed 70 years prior - was supposed to take care of that. :confused: :rolleyes:
     
  12. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    You mean laws don't stop criminals?

    Dammit, when did that happen? :evil:


    I'm gonna write my legislator. I want a law making it illegal to ignore the law.
     
  13. Sans Authoritas

    Sans Authoritas member

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    R127 wrote
    R127, don't you see, your proclamation of this "truth" stuff just isn't as exciting as having "THREAT LEVEL ORANGE" thrown in our faces, or having a Glorious Decider tell us that the foreign hobogoblins are coming to eviscerate our children in their sleep.

    I mean, if people knew that the likelihood of being killed in a terrorist attack was infinitely less than dying from heart disease, a car accident, a bee sting, shark attack or a lightning strike, people wouldn't rally behind the Dict... er, Decider and support every policy he proposes. And that's un-American. You have to support whoever happens to be in power, and the troops, no matter what cause they're serving, without question.

    -Sans Authoritas
     
  14. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Ummm, yeah, LAPD has AR-15s, not M-16s.:rolleyes:

    How about all those M-14s and M-16s that fed.gov passed out after the VCCA of 1994? How about all the guns that .gov passed out in all the other "crime bills".

    How about the moutain of guns that the federal government's LE agencies have? How about mentioning the tons of guns and ammo that were destroyed at WTC?

    Geez, the City of West Friggin' Terre Haute, Indiana got M-14s in '95. West Terre Haute, the most problematic crime there is a loose dog or improper parking of a pick up on a Sunday morning.

    The article makes it sound like the cops woke up and started buying guns. Ahhh, new threat, ahhhh, pass a law.

    When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.
     
  15. TCB in TN

    TCB in TN Member

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    Just like the ole "American Rifleman behind every blade of grass", the idea of traispin through those mountain passes with Swiss rifle men raining down bullets from behind every rock does not sound very appealing!
     
  16. Sans Authoritas

    Sans Authoritas member

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    If only they could word the law a little more strongly, maybe the criminals would listen. Something like: Article 18, Section 23: "You mustn't bestially bludgeon someone to death with a cudgel, because that's murder, and it's a really, really, really bad violation of someone else's rights. And you would make that person's mommy cry. We don't want that, do we?"

    -Sans Authoritas
     
  17. Parruthead

    Parruthead Member

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    Yeah i looked for the author's email address because of the way Assault Rifle was throwin in that article so much.. It angered me so much.

    Anybody ever read the Wikipedia entery on Assault Rifles? I find it quite good.

    An assault rifle is a selective fire rifle or carbine firing ammunition with muzzle energies intermediate between those typical of pistol and battle rifle ammunition. Assault rifles are categorized between light machine guns, intended more for sustained automatic fire in a support role, and submachine guns, which fire a handgun cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge. Assault rifles are the standard small arms in most modern armies, having largely replaced or supplemented larger, more powerful battle rifles, such as the World War II-era M1 Garand and Tokarev SVT. Examples of assault rifles include the AK-47 and the M16 rifle. Semi-automatic rifles, including commercial versions of the AR-15, and "automatic" rifles limited to firing single shots, even though incorrectly classified in the United States as assault rifles by the now defunct 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, are not assault rifles as they are not selective fire. Belt-fed weapons or rifles with very limited capacity fixed magazines are also generally not considered assault rifles.

    Just my Two cents
     
  18. glennv

    glennv Member

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    i hope to god there is never another AWB. I rob liqueur stores for a living and without access to semi-automatic weapons it's going to make me have to get a real job making $6.50/hour. Life was tough between 94-04.
     
  19. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    PFFT! This is just an excuse to waste taxpayer dollars. at the EXPENSE of public safety. It's gotten to the point where I'm much more worried about being "accidentally" shot by the police than any real or imagined criminal threat.

    I'm 30 and to date I cannot recall one situation that the police found themselves in that couldn't have been handled with a win 94 in 30-30 and a Ruger Security six. Even the infamous LA shootout would have been over with before it started if a few 150grn core-lokt FP's could have lobbed in the right direction
     
  20. R127

    R127 Member

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    Sept 11 was a bad attack that saw a lot of people murdered. It's normal and natural to be outraged about it. Last I heard the total death toll was 2,998. To put that into perspective according to the CDC there were 3,308 deaths by accidental drowning in 2004. I don't have the figures for other years handy but I don't suspect it varies much from year to year and that's a real rate of 9 deaths per day. Clearly the billions and billions being pumped into the GWOT would be better spent on a far more lethal spectre facing America, accidental drowning. Once you factor in that 9/11 happened only because the passengers on the planes had been disarmed for years and that the pilots were disarmed by law a few months before the attack it becomes pretty clear that we don't have a terrorism problem we have a victim disarmament problem. Flight 93 provided the perfect example that yes passengers would fight for their lives and their country and that in all likelihood if they had been armed in the first place the hijacking attempt would never have gotten as far as it did. So yeah, instead of being scared of imaginary boogeymen we should stand together as one nation and confront the horrors of accidental drowning.

    Otherwise like many others I feel fine with LEO's having patrol rifles. Since law enforcement officers are civilians and I am opposed to the notion of the super-citizen I do not believe they should be allowed to have a happy switch on their patrol rifle unless we can have them on our rifles. Buying rifles with DHS money is one thing but since in reality we are also talking about things like APC's, helicopters, spy gear, cannons and other questionable equipment it becomes more apparent that really it boils down to what would you honestly expect if you gave a kid a hundred bucks and cut him loose in a candy store? The article is just trying to spin the natural results of the terror money handout program into something they can use for their gun agenda.
     
  21. Guitargod1985

    Guitargod1985 Member

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    That pretty much sums it up. Although, I'd like to add that I think the average citizen should be in an arms race with the police.
     
  22. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

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    when you post a link it could go bad so links and story please
     
  23. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

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    like this, ok?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080323/ap_on_re_us/police_weapons;_ylt=AqcWv7lmZBarnkcB8aUMaxdH2ocA
    BOISE, Idaho - The 30-year-old mother of three jumped from her disabled SUV following a chase, holding a gun to her head to keep police back. Officers fired a stun gun but

    When she pointed her handgun at the two nearest deputies, officers switched to assault rifles, hitting Sarah Marie Stanfield of Boise eight times with bullets designed to break apart on impact to increase internal damage. She died last fall of multiple gunshot wounds.

    Some jurisdictions across the U.S. have been arming rank-and-file officers with high-powered assault rifles for a decade or more. But law enforcement officials say that trend has accelerated in the last year because of greater numbers of shootouts, standoffs in which police were outgunned, rising officer deaths and mass shootings of civilians by heavily armed gunmen.

    "If you get into a fire fight, you want to be the winner," said Scott Knight, police chief of Chaska, Minn., and chairman of the firearms committee for the International Association of Chiefs of Police. "Our departments are moving to those weapons out of necessity across the country."

    Chaska, 25 miles southwest of Minneapolis, is a town of only about 24,000, but earlier this month Knight ordered the department's first 10 assault rifles, each with two 30-round magazines.

    Only patchwork information is available on how many other law enforcement agencies are outfitting deputies and patrol officers with assault rifles, the kind of firepower once reserved for specialized SWAT teams. But from Chaska to Miami to college campuses, agencies are acquiring AR-15s or M-4s, both close relatives of the military's M-16. The rifles fire bullets with enough velocity to penetrate some types of body armor and have greater accuracy at longer range than handguns.

    Last year, Miami Police Chief John Timoney authorized his patrol officers to carry AR-15s because of a rise in assault rifle use by criminals.

    "This is a national problem. Police agencies all over the U.S. are going to bigger weapons," said Timoney, whose agency now has about 50 AR-15s and expects to get 150 more. He blames the 2004 expiration of the federal ban on assault weapons for the escalation of heavily armed violence.

    In 2007, according to preliminary numbers compiled by the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, 69 officers were shot to death, up from 52 in 2006 and the most in five years. Last year included six shootings where two or more officers were killed in the same event, fund spokesman Kevin Morison said.

    "There just seems to be a more brazen, cold-blooded killers out there," he said.

    The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence said it understands the moves to assault weapons. "Police officers need to be able to defend themselves and the rest of us, and they need the weapons to do so," said spokesman Peter Hamm.

    Law enforcement officials say the trend toward issuing assault rifles to regular patrol officers started in Los Angeles after a 1997 shootout following a botched bank robbery. Two heavily armed men wore body armor that stopped 9 mm bullets fired by the handguns carried by police, 11 of whom were injured along with six civilians. The two robbers were eventually killed. The Los Angeles Police Department now issues AR-15s.

    Two years later, police began rethinking a strategy of securing areas and waiting for negotiators and SWAT teams after two teens killing 13 people and wounded two dozen others at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.

    Campus police at Arizona's three large public universities are being armed with assault rifles. Officials say the weapons will enable officers to shoot at targets at the ends of long hallways or atop tall buildings.

    In the Idaho case, an investigation cleared the deputies earlier this month, noting they initially risked their lives by attempting to use nonlethal means before firing their assault rifles.

    "Any time that we perceive great bodily harm or death may result, we may take action," said Ada County Sheriff's Lt. Scott Johnson.
     
  24. ZombiesAhead

    ZombiesAhead Member

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    You want to limit our RKBA based on skill with rifles registered to each of us?

    Switzerland does not just pass out AR-15's to anybody. You have to be a service member for the full auto versions.

    To buy a gun, you need a permit which is only good for 3 firearms.

    Ammunition sales are registered to the buyer.

    ...and this year restrictions will likely be tightened by the Schengen treaty, a quasi-EU type thing that will register all guns and prevent trade between private individuals.

    Sounds great.

    World War II was an especially heroic time where no one "messed" with them due to a healthy dose of economic concessions and trade with the Third Reich.
     
  25. evilelvis

    evilelvis Member

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    And how many idiotic mistakes have the cops made on innocent civilians during the same time? The use of overwhelming force from SWAT with their fancy weapons have caused plenty of innocent deaths as well.
     
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