Jamie C.
Member
And how 'bout you, Homerboy? What are your "qualifications"?
J.C.
Police shooting, people going nuts over dead idiot.
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And how 'bout you, Homerboy? What are your "qualifications"?
J.C.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Homer,
I'm not saying any such thing, I'm just asking a question you seem very, almost suspiciously, reluctant to answer.
Why should I hold a professional to a lower standard than an amateur?
Selena
I'm not saying any such thing, I'm just asking a question you seem very, almost suspiciously, reluctant to answer.
Why should I hold a professional to a lower standard than an amateur?
Selena
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Biker,
Careful my friend, remember the peacemaker generally finds themselves in the midst of a crossfire.
I'm used to it, I ask my brother in law the same question. He's a patrolman with the Indiana State Police.
Selena
Careful my friend, remember the peacemaker generally finds themselves in the midst of a crossfire.
I'm used to it, I ask my brother in law the same question. He's a patrolman with the Indiana State Police.
Selena
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Jamie,
<Still, if it did happen, and all 4 or 5 fired at once, expending 20 or 30 rounds, I don't believe it would negate castle doctrine, at least not here in TN.>
I'm told it happened in Indy sometime in the 90's. A homeowner emptied the magazine of a .45 into a burglar. They raked the poor guy over the coals because of firing all seven rounds and he was using hollow point ammunition. I remember my sister telling me about a case in the Quad Cities as well although I don't remember the details. I believe the homeowner got more prison time than the burglar.
Even without those examples, a civilian shooting is put under a far more powerful microscope than one by police. Which begs the question, why should professionals be judged under lessor standards than the amateurs. Just one simple little question I want the answer to. All I get is the "you have no right to ask." Makes me wonder if they have something to hide.
Selena
<Still, if it did happen, and all 4 or 5 fired at once, expending 20 or 30 rounds, I don't believe it would negate castle doctrine, at least not here in TN.>
I'm told it happened in Indy sometime in the 90's. A homeowner emptied the magazine of a .45 into a burglar. They raked the poor guy over the coals because of firing all seven rounds and he was using hollow point ammunition. I remember my sister telling me about a case in the Quad Cities as well although I don't remember the details. I believe the homeowner got more prison time than the burglar.
Even without those examples, a civilian shooting is put under a far more powerful microscope than one by police. Which begs the question, why should professionals be judged under lessor standards than the amateurs. Just one simple little question I want the answer to. All I get is the "you have no right to ask." Makes me wonder if they have something to hide.
Selena
Jamie C.
Member
Selena, if all the holes aren't in the front of the BG, there are going to be questions - LOTS of questions - no matter how many shots were fired.
As for being raked over the coals... all the officers I know of or have worked with get to go through the same investigation by CID that civilians do, plus a review by internal affairs that civilians don't get. And that's for what is obviously a "good shoot", and one that no charges would be filed on for a civilian.
So, at least here in my little bass-ackwards corner of the woods, the police actually get much closer scrutiny than the average person does, for the same thing, in the same ( or worse )circumstances.
As for being raked over the coals... all the officers I know of or have worked with get to go through the same investigation by CID that civilians do, plus a review by internal affairs that civilians don't get. And that's for what is obviously a "good shoot", and one that no charges would be filed on for a civilian.
So, at least here in my little bass-ackwards corner of the woods, the police actually get much closer scrutiny than the average person does, for the same thing, in the same ( or worse )circumstances.
Bilt4Comfort
Member
If the dead kid was white...this wouldn't even be a story.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Jamie,
Up to a point that is true and I appreciate your candor. Rather than strech the poor moderator's patience any further and because I'm getting bored with it I won't state the obvious objections and accept that... at least until next month.
Selena
Up to a point that is true and I appreciate your candor. Rather than strech the poor moderator's patience any further and because I'm getting bored with it I won't state the obvious objections and accept that... at least until next month.
Selena
soutex50
Member
My problem, is the idea of twenty rounds fired. Once again, if an equal number of civilians in a similar situation (i.e. a bona fide self defense shooting) had used twenty rounds the prosecutors would be hanging them out to dry for excessive force. So once again I ask the question, why should we hold amateurs to a higher standard than the professions?
True...but we are not. Remember, that DA or prosecutor has to take his case before a Grand Jury, composed of CIVILIANS (at least in Mother Texas it is) and those twelve civilians have to decide if excessive force was used or not. Then the case goes to trial and Oh My God, twelve more civilians are selected to decide if your civilian shooters are guilty or not. Police go through all that plus, as already mentioned, the internal affairs goon squad too. Knowing the sheep mentality (from Col. Grossman's book On Killing, good read BTW) most Americans have nowadays, yes your civilian shooters will be found guilty of excessive force.
True...but we are not. Remember, that DA or prosecutor has to take his case before a Grand Jury, composed of CIVILIANS (at least in Mother Texas it is) and those twelve civilians have to decide if excessive force was used or not. Then the case goes to trial and Oh My God, twelve more civilians are selected to decide if your civilian shooters are guilty or not. Police go through all that plus, as already mentioned, the internal affairs goon squad too. Knowing the sheep mentality (from Col. Grossman's book On Killing, good read BTW) most Americans have nowadays, yes your civilian shooters will be found guilty of excessive force.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi soutex50
I understand your take, again I would point out the flaw, or rather my concerns, but in deference to our overworked moderator I'll accept it with unspoken reservations.
After all, I'm too stupid to have the right to an opinion.
Selena
I understand your take, again I would point out the flaw, or rather my concerns, but in deference to our overworked moderator I'll accept it with unspoken reservations.
After all, I'm too stupid to have the right to an opinion.
Selena
cassandrasdaddy
Member
- Joined
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"My stance is simple- had four civilians stopped that attack with 20 rounds and that 'excellent' 40% hit ratio, a prosecutor would be eating them from breakfast. And the charge would be murder since the excess would be proof they wanted to kill him. Yet I'm illogically not to lower my standards for alledged proffessionals? Thank you for proving my point."
could you show us an example. in real life, of that happening? the prosecutor charging a group of civilians?
could you show us an example. in real life, of that happening? the prosecutor charging a group of civilians?
Officers'Wife
Member
Нет, это никогда не могло случаться, товарищ
No, that couldn't possibly have happened, comrade. The police were right, they are always right. They did a wonderful job and so what if a few civilians had to duck an cover. It's the price of having trained professionals on the job.
Selena
No, that couldn't possibly have happened, comrade. The police were right, they are always right. They did a wonderful job and so what if a few civilians had to duck an cover. It's the price of having trained professionals on the job.
Selena
Jamie C.
Member
Selena, I'm not trying to win an argument here so much as just trying to understand what brings you to the conclusions and opinions you have, as well as letting you know some of what goes on with the police that the public never sees.
I can think of several shootings here locally, where charges probably should have been filed against a civilian, but weren't. Even know of at least one who, in my opinion, got away with murder.
I also know of a couple of incidents where officers were reprimanded or punished when civilians wouldn't have been.
Now, I'm not saying it's like this everywhere, or with every department. But at least around here, the police are held to a much higher standard than the public is, and what's a case of self-defense for the average person can often end up being excessive force or worse for a Police officer or deputy.
J.C.
I can think of several shootings here locally, where charges probably should have been filed against a civilian, but weren't. Even know of at least one who, in my opinion, got away with murder.
I also know of a couple of incidents where officers were reprimanded or punished when civilians wouldn't have been.
Now, I'm not saying it's like this everywhere, or with every department. But at least around here, the police are held to a much higher standard than the public is, and what's a case of self-defense for the average person can often end up being excessive force or worse for a Police officer or deputy.
J.C.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Jamie,
I think I've taken enough abuse for one day. I ask questions I have my intelligence and patriotism questioned. I go for sarcasm and my husband is insulted. It would appear the only one trying to understand is me, trouble is the questions I ask seem to violate some thin blue line code. Frankly, it's not worth my time.
I do not know how to make it any clearer than that, K?
Selena
I think I've taken enough abuse for one day. I ask questions I have my intelligence and patriotism questioned. I go for sarcasm and my husband is insulted. It would appear the only one trying to understand is me, trouble is the questions I ask seem to violate some thin blue line code. Frankly, it's not worth my time.
I do not know how to make it any clearer than that, K?
Selena
Red Dragon
Member
No one here is calling you stupid, Selena. It is blatently apparent that you do, in fact, have as much a right to have an opinion as any of us. Simply because some of us disagree with your opinion doesn't mean you can't have one.
Personally, I don't believe this has been an arguement. At least, not one between you and I. I have been viewing it as simply an exchange of opinions and viewpoints. To me, this has just been a debate. I enjoy debates for the intellectual stimulation. If anything I have said has caused you to get angry, that was not my intent, and I apologize, although I have found in my experience that people tend to be a little more honest when a debate becomes heated.
This forum is one for open discussion and not everyone will have the same view. If they did, it would be pretty boring. Again, I did not start my discussion with you in order to make you feel ganged up on and if that was the outcome I apologize. I fully appreciate your opinions, even though I happen to disagree with them in this particular case. I am looking forward to the next debate where, quite possibly, we may be debating on the same side.
Red Dragon
Jamie C.
Member
Well, actually one person did, but I can't help but notice that he's fallen silent once he was called out on his own qualifications to hold and voice an opinion... And I strongly suspect that it won't go well for him if he continues with the kind of insulting behavior that we've seen here on this thread.
For myself, as I've said, I'm not trying to win an argument or competition... I'm only relating what I've experienced myself. And I'm fully aware that "here" ( where I live and have worked ) isn't the whole world, and that things are quite probably done differently elsewhere. I'm simply throwing my thoughts out there to be considered with everything else. *shrug*
J.C.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Jamie,
I appreciate the benefit of your vast experience. After all, I'm to stupid to have the right to an opinion of my own. Thank God I have trained professionals to do my thinking for me.
There, that is as polite as I can manage after finally getting a feverish two year old asleep. Ten degrees is better than ninety, pin it already.
Selena
I appreciate the benefit of your vast experience. After all, I'm to stupid to have the right to an opinion of my own. Thank God I have trained professionals to do my thinking for me.
There, that is as polite as I can manage after finally getting a feverish two year old asleep. Ten degrees is better than ninety, pin it already.
Selena
Ok, I think we've beaten this horse to death...
Jeff
Jeff
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