Graystar,
We were not talking about the shooting of Amadou DiAllo here or about any other shooting than the one at hand. We were discussing the particular shooting that was brought up in the original post of this thread. Now to say that the cop who fired the shots in this incident was wrong because of others who were wrong in the past is absolutely ludicrous and apparently nothing more than an attempt to flame emotions in order to try to get your opinion believed unless you can show exactly how in FACT the current situation is the same as those others. The fact is that right now you cannot do that because the facts as reported differ greatly from those other shootings. Why not stick to the facts of this particular situation in trying to judge this situation. Why not let me direct you to the current factual allegations in this case if only because you don't care about the facts in my estimation. You only seem to care about blackballing the police. Let's see if I can shed some more light on this but first let me shed some light on your apparent outlook by asking you some questions:
1) Did you mention the thousands of times that NYC cops save lives each year?
2) Did you mention the thousands of times that they protect lives, protect property, get the job done correctly, or do anything else right? (Of course you did not.)
3) When you say 'yeah, like other innocent people shot by NYC cops', did you even think of mentioning any of the countless number of so called "good shootings" in which NYC law enforcement officers have been involved wherein they used good judgment? It is pretty obvious to me you are being quite prejudice in your post. Note, I never said this was a good or bad shooting from the standpoint of whether or not the officer firing did it wrong or right; all I said was to examine the facts before absolutely condemning anyone. I guess you are omnipotent (godlike) in that you know it all already without having all the facts regarding this particular case. Wow I wish I had that capability - to get it right no matter what, even when the factual allegations seemingly indicate that this may be more complex than mentioned by you.
4) When you referred to NYC cops going through lights, do you know if they were responding (in silent mode) to a duty call or not? Do you have any knowledge at all of NYC cops actually doing this, because they certainly do respond silently in some instances.
5) And finally, do you know the additional factual allegations made in today’s NY Daily News?
The first four questions were rhetorical, the third requires an answer from you, so hurry to the NY Daily News website to read the latest article. Oh wait, I'll save you the trouble. Instead of trying to pour gasoline onto the already flaming emotions you have exhibited, I will instead, provide factual allegations that appeared in the NY Daily News article. Better than that, instead of appearing to be selecting what I want from the article, I'll post the whole thing with a link:
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Cop shoots cop at burger joint
One fights for life, other's traumatized
BY ALISON GENDAR, VERONIKA BELENKAYA, JONATHAN LEMIRE and ROBERT F. MOORE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Police scour White Castle in Tremont, the Bronx, for clues yesterday after tragic shooting in which cop unknowingly shot off-duty officer Eric Hernandez, leaving him gravely wounded.
A drunken off-duty cop holding a man at gunpoint outside a Bronx White Castle was shot three times by a veteran officer in a stunning case of mistaken identity yesterday, police and hospital sources said.
"Drop the gun! Drop the gun!" the uniformed cop yelled, repeating the warning a third and fourth time before firing and gravely wounding Officer Eric Hernandez.
The cops who confronted Hernandez, 24, a star running back on the NYPD football team, had no idea the victim was a member of the force until paramedics found the rookie's badge while treating him in an ambulance, sources said.
Mayor Bloomberg called the shooting a tragic accident, saying many unanswered questions remained about the early-morning mayhem that left Hernandez fighting for life.
"That's unavoidable in a situation where
life and death decisions are made in an instant," Bloomberg said shortly after the 5 a.m. shooting, which took place less than a day after another cop dropped dead while chasing an alleged thief in Manhattan.
The uniformed officer who shot Hernandez - identified by police sources as 19-year NYPD veteran Alfredo Toro - was later treated at Jacobi Medical Center for trauma.
Hernandez, who is assigned to the 52nd Precinct, had been standing in line at the White Castle on Webster Ave. in Tremont when he was assaulted by five men and a woman, police said.
The clash, which was captured by security cameras, spilled out a side door.
Hernandez chased a man he wrongly believed was one of his attackers and drew his gun, cops said.
When cops responding to 911 calls about a "man with a gun" arrived, Hernandez had young Brian Muñoz on the ground and was pointing his pistol at him, witnesses said.
"The police officer said, 'Drop the gun!' He said it four times," said witness Anthony White, 38. "The guy just turned around and pointed the gun right at the cops."
Toro fired three times, hitting Hernandez once in each leg and a third time in the abdomen, sources said. The bullets pierced major arteries, causing him to lose a significant amount of blood.
Hernandez, who had gotten off work five hours earlier, never fired.
Several minutes after the shooting, emergency workers pulled Hernandez's police shield from his pocket - and Toro crumpled to the ground in dismay, sources said.
Hernandez, who joined the department in July 2004, had a blood-alcohol level twice the legal limit, according to a source at St. Barnabas Hospital, where he was listed in critical condition late yesterday after four hours of surgery.
An off-duty cop is not allowed to carry his gun if he is drunk, according to NYPD regulations.
Hernandez - about 6 feet tall and nearly 200 pounds - had spent the night bar-hopping with a female relative, a police source said.
Yesterday's shooting was believed to be the first friendly-fire incident involving city cops since Desmond Robinson, a plainclothes officer, was wounded by an off-duty cop in August 1994. Robinson had his gun drawn on a subway platform, and the other cop mistook him for a criminal.
Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly and dozens of other cops gathered yesterday at St. Barnabas to comfort Hernandez's family and search for answers.
The cop's relatives prayed in the hospital chapel as officers rushed to donate blood.
NYPD Sgt. John Muldoon, who plays on the department football team with Hernandez, said he wasn't surprised that the cop, a Sacred Heart University grad, was fighting to survive.
"He's just tough as nails," Muldoon said. "He's the toughest kid pound for pound on the team."
Toro, meanwhile, was described as a smart, aggressive cop with 1,300 arrests to his credit. "He did everything by the book," said a police source.
Kelly said police were questioning eight people about the shooting, but none were among those who scuffled with Hernandez in the White Castle.
"This is a classic off-duty confrontation," a police source said. "They didn't know he was a cop. It's the worst possible scenario - a cop shooting a cop."
With Austin Fenner, Bob Kappstatter,
Jose Martinez, Paul H.B. Shin
and Jess Wisloski
Originally published on January 28, 2006
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The bold face and underlined sentences above were highlighted by me. I think those sentences add even more information than we had last night. Note in particular the one about the actions that Hernandez reportedly took when Toro told him to drop the gun. The picture I am beginning to develop is that Officer Hernandez was most likely the one at fault, although I will not say this as fact, it is the idea I am getting after having read a few different articles. of course I will not say the press has it completely right so I can only go on what I read, therefore I make no final judgment. Final judgment in this world will be made by others than myself, those who will have many more facts before them to review before passing judgment. Let us hope they do not try to use the past actions of others to condemn the actions of officer Toro, he deserves his own case to be heard based upon the actual facts of his own case.
I do have some more questions for you before I close, are you aware of Officer Toro's service record? Are you aware of any other shootings in whcih he may or may not have been involved? Are you aware if he has ever gotten it right during his career. Are you aware if he has ever gotten it wrong in his career? Are you aware of anything factual, even factual allegations or reported fact, related to this shooting that you can discuss without flaming emotions?
Just one final question from me: How long should Officer Toro have waited before Toro shot Hernandez, how many commands to drop the gun should he have made, should he have waited for Hernandez to actually fire his weapopn (and who knows that he would not have done so if he was truly as intoxicated as was reported)? If you know the answer to that, then you must be in the mind of Officer Toro or you must be all knowing/all seeing or just a whole lot smarter than most of us here. Had Hernandez shot the guy on the ground, my bet is you would have condemned him, and you still would have faulted Toro too, but instead of saying Toro shot too soon or used excessive force, you would have said he should have shot sooner. Then again, that's just my guess but at least I base it on your style of response.
Best regards,
Glenn B
