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Police State?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by dev_null, Jul 18, 2004.

?

Are we already living in a police state?

  1. Yes, we are already living in a police state.

    34 vote(s)
    17.6%
  2. No, but we're rapidly approaching one.

    128 vote(s)
    66.3%
  3. No, and I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime.

    26 vote(s)
    13.5%
  4. Other (please explain).

    5 vote(s)
    2.6%
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  1. dev_null

    dev_null Member

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    In your judgment, does the U.S. fit the definition of a police state?
     
  2. Mulder

    Mulder Member

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    I think it is more of a quasi-police state, but we approaching a total one.

    What are the characteristics of a police state?

    -- One set of rules for the elites and the enforcers, and another for the rest of us

    -- So many laws that anyone can be arrested for almost anything

    -- Shift from constitutional law to administrative law

    -- Eradication of jury system

    -- Elimination of rights against illegal searches and seizure

    -- Gov't able to detain people with filing charges

    -- No accountability for gov't action

    -- The state has the authority to demand your 'papers' for no reason


    We're closer than alot of people think
     
  3. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    I don't think we are in one, nor do I think we are close to one, but I cannot pick the option that says that it will not happen in my lifetime. Such things can always happen.

    So long as elections are actually meaningful, a police state is not really possible. The dangerous thing is that once you get close, turning back is rather difficult. Doubly so if you have lost RKBA.

    Mike
     
  4. Treylis

    Treylis Member

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    "The only difference between a welfare state and a police state is time."
    --Ayn Rand

    We're already halfway there, helped along eagerly by the Republicans and Democrats alike.
     
  5. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    No. Not even close. And it won't happen as long as the American people are as well armed as we are today.
     
  6. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    We have no redress for grievances.

    No accountability in government.

    No way to be recognized as law abiding.

    No amount of cooperation or obsequiousness will let us go our own way in peace unless the gestapo is in a good mood that day.

    Yes, I'd say that that qualifies as a police state.

    Most are in denial.
     
  7. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Well, with the no-win choice between Bush and Kerry, I would say the presidential election this year is no longer meaningful.
     
  8. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    The terrible thing about living in a society with other people is that not everything that happens meets with the individual's approval.

    FWIW, I have felt the same way about every election since Reagan/Carter/Anderson (the first I can remember), and I bet if you could poll the populace back through history, they would say the same about each one since Washington/uh...whomever ran against him.

    And remember the Whiskey Rebellion. Washington was a pinko statist fascist jack booted thug. ;)
     
  9. WonderNine

    WonderNine member

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    Vote Independent. :)
     
  10. JPL

    JPL Member

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    Judging by a lot of what I've read over the years, we've been "rapidly" approaching a police state since about 1607.

    Are we there yet?
    Are we there yet?
    Are we there yet?
    Are we there yet?

    If you kids don't shut up, I'm going to pull this country off to the side of the road and lay a baton upside your heads!
     
  11. WonderNine

    WonderNine member

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    Ahhh!!

    Police brutality!
    Police brutality!
    Police brutality!
    Police brutality!

    :neener:
     
  12. Treylis

    Treylis Member

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    Ah, somebody's been reading their L. Neil Smith. ;-)
     
  13. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    We have the "arrest the money" laws; we're no longer free to wander about with whatever amount of cash that suits us. We have the application of the RICO act to other than organized crime activities. We can't have a foreign bank account without informing IRS.

    There's little or no accountability for governmental misdeeds, as evidenced by the Ruby Ridge and the Waco hearings before Congress.

    We have the use of eminent domain for the benefit of private enterprises.

    Where's the accountability for any maltreatment of people in airports, by the TSA employees?

    Martha Stewart, while not under oath, lied to the government about something which was legal: The sale of stock. She's sentenced to jail.

    People have lost property to governmental sequestration because of the actions of third parties, in the so-called War on Drugs.

    We have the dead bodies of innocent people as a result of the militarization of the attitudes of some police forces and from the methodology of entering homes to search for drugs.

    We have many laws, decried here, which seek to prevent crime by restraining only those who do not perpetrate crimes: Gun control laws.

    No, we're not yet in any sort of full-fledged police state. Yes, we're in deep doo-doo as regards liberties which were once taken for granted...

    Art
     
  14. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

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    Hmm. This question opens a minefield of misperception. On one hand, we've gone far beyond what our grandparents (much less the Founders) would have considered outrageous. On the other hand, we're nowhere near what people in Nazi Germany or the USSR had to deal with.

    The trick is to open our eyes without being Chicken Little.
     
  15. rick_reno

    rick_reno member

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    Don't worry - the police state is being put in place for the children.
     
  16. nero45acp

    nero45acp Member

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    A country that imprisons a higher percentage of it's population than any other country in the world, and can confiscate your property (asset forfeiture) without due process meets my criteria for the title "Police State".:scrutiny:



    nero
     
  17. Selfdfenz

    Selfdfenz Member

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    Pretty depressing. 78% of us thing we are there or on our way.

    S-
     
  18. liliysdad

    liliysdad member

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    I dont, nor do I think we are even on our way...but then again, I m aone of the jack booted thugs......if this were a police state, the ACLU wouldnt be alive..unfortunately, it is.
     
  19. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    Art sums up my thoughts pretty well. There is a great deal to be concerned about; but at the same time I've travelled some and the U.S. is a long way from the low standards of some of our democratic allies, let alone the autocratic stylings of a real police state.
     
  20. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    While it may be true that we're not living in a full fledged police state, that's just because the haven't taken off the velvet glove and showed their teeth yet. Make no mistake, the technology is in place, the jackboots have been delivered. They just haven't been issued with stomping orders yet.
     
  21. Checkman

    Checkman member

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    Let's see there was the Whiskey Rebellion and Hay's Rebellion in the first few years of our nations history. Both collapsed without to much effort being expended by the goverment. Apparently we had already slipped into tyranny.

    The Civil War needs no explanation. Of course there was the Bonus Army in the early 1930's and bad feelings about the railroads taking folks land without little to no compensation in the 1800's. The feelings got pretty strong because some of the lands belonged to white people. Oh and lets see there was the predicted revolution in the late sixties and the voices got really loud after Kent State - at least for a few weeks. Boy we could go on and on. Wounded Knee in 73 and the taking over of Alcatraz by "activists" around the same time. Riots, labor unrest, et. etc. The Cassandras have been yelling about the United States being a tyranny since the country came into exsistence.

    I've lived in Western Europe and we are much more open then those democracies. Fron what I've lerned in my study of American history this country is more open then it was just a century ago. A centry ago the KKK ran rant large parts of the south. Lynch mobs rountinely broke into jails and murdered suspects - without a trial. So much for due process. One could go to jail for mailing "obscene material". You know material addressing such things as sex education and so forth. I believe it was called the Sullivan Act, but I'm not certain.

    Women couldn't vote, "literacy tests" were given at voting locations to deny blacks their vote, companies - especially coal companies - kept their workers in legal servitude ( company stores, company housing, bad working conditions) and the extreme wealthy lived so far above the averag citizen they might as well have been gods.

    I just wish that all of the folks who talk about the police state and fighting for their freedoms would admit that they want another civil war. Heck they relish the idea of another civil war. Perhaps they also relish the idea of being in charge. Lord knows that's the impression I get from the folks who post their various cop bashing threads.

    Well just remember this. While these posters see themselves on the side of the angels others don't. As a member of the oppresive police state (Army veteran, active duty police army, NRA member) I also have firearms and I will shoot back if you shoot at me. I'll definitely shoot back if you threaten my family. I'm not a jackbooted thug, I'm not a Nazi. I'm a police officer and an American who serves this country and you - whether you like it or not. I'm also not going to be a fantasy target for the heros. Bullets in the real world go both ways guys. I'm not making a threat just an observation.
     
  22. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    I understand what you're saying, but just don't see how "they" could do that on any wholesale basis, against armed opponents. Think about it. Nobody knows each of our individual AO's like us. We know every road, trail, rock, tree, hill and valley. We know all the structures and what they contain. A few good men with accurate rifles, moving from place to place, would at the very least slow them down to a crawl. Unless they were willing to wage full scale war against a civilian population (which would stop the economy and the collection of taxes dead in its tracks), there is no way they could selectively eliminate/apprehend enough "insurgents" to quell an ongoing rebellion.

    Art's points are well taken, especially regarding Waco and Ruby Ridge, which were clearly police state tactics and nothing short of legalized murder. The powers afforded to government in the form of the Patriot Acts are also "troubling". I don't know whether RICO is rife with abuses of innocents or not.

    To me, "Police State" means no knock entries, disappearance of people, suspension of due process, appropriation of private property, detention without reasonable cause, etc., on a wholesale large scale basis. I just don't think that will happen while we are armed. I think "they" (the wannabe tyrants) are afraid of an armed population, which is why this gun control incrementalism is so pervasive. Just don't turn over your firearms, NO MATTER WHAT crappy laws they pass. That's my philosophy.
     
  23. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

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    That's the crux of it, huh? Prolly why we're as free as we are still! If they went wholesale large scale, they'd be doing good just to protect their bases. So they wont, probably.



    What about biologicals? I think the're coming. Invisible & silent plausable deniability. Martial law to protect us. Thats their style.

    Checkman, I hear your apprehension and respect your thought process. It shows you've been paying attention to the writing on the wall. I for one don't want to shoot at you and would not unless a threat to me & mine were perceived, still only in a defensive mode. I don't dislike cops. I dislike the administration that unfairly pits them against their friends & neighbors. I suspect we have lots of cops on our side discretely. But wholesale mayhem is not present yet and cops want to keep living & feeding their families in the mean time. Can't fault that. Everything is not black & white in this new kind of war that is upon us. White picket fences are a thing of the past having been replaced with concertina wire & electric. There is no demilitarized zone. Let's just keep on keeping on and continue to pay attention to the cards that are played...
     
  24. JPL

    JPL Member

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    The technology for a police state has been in place with every generation over the past 400 years.

    The only "true" police state ever to hold sway may likely have been the suspension of habeus corpus and other elements of the Constitution during the Civil War.

    When I was in my late tees and 20s, and part of the anti-Vietnam movement, I and many of my compatriots were firmly convinced that we were living in a fascist police state.

    The actions of police suppressing blacks AND whites seeking civil rights and equal equality and in suppressing anti-war demonstrations was all the proof that we needed.

    The generations before me saw McCarthyism, Mitchell Palmer, the suppression of the labor movements through use of the militia and at times the regular army, the list goes on and on.
     
  25. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Now THAT is some scary crap. You've heard of the "chemtrails" controversy?
     
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