Polishing 1911 Trigger Mating Surfaces

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TarpleyG

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Tuner, Old Fuff, somebody

I have a Kimber TLE (IDPA gun) with a ~5# trigger pull. I am going to replace the hammer spring with a 20# Wolff (or 18# if I can get by with it-has a 23# now) and adjust the sear spring leaves per Weigand's instructions to try and get a 3-3.5# trigger pull. It has all original internals and seems crisp now. What do I use to polish the sear and trigger and what surfaces*, specifically, do I need to polish?

Thanks,
Greg

*
Quote by Tuner:

Polish all mating surfaces and that's it.

There are a couple surfaces that are better left alone. The backside of the
sear primary angle is one...The top of the disconnector is the other.
Click to expand...
 
Gunsmiths will often polish surfaces simply by using the fine polishing wheel, the same one used for polishing prior to rebluing. When hand polishing, you can use the polishing wheel on a Dremel tool (jewellers rouge polishing compound is available where the tools are sold, but any fine grade compound will do - see Brownells). Or you can use crocus cloth and hand polish by rubbing the part on it. I polish the top and bottom of the trigger, and the sides and back of the trigger bow, while making sure it does not rub on the frame. I also polish the frame where the bow slides. Then I polish the inside bottom of the disconnector, and the area where it contacts the sear. Polishing the sear where it contacts the hammer is fine, but don't change the angle or remove metal, you are polishing, not grinding.

Also check the parts for any sharp or rubbing surfaces and give them a light polish as well. This sounds like a lot, but it is a 15 minute job, and can make a lot of difference.

Jim
 
The Old Fuff would suggest that you don't polish anything - yet.

The hammer-sear engagement points have some sharp edges and corners that are supposed to stay that way. If they get rounded your trigger pull can go "mushy" and/or become too light. Polishing in the other places Jim recommended will slightly reduce friction and make the action (in general) feel smoother.

You can probably get the reduction in trigger pull you want by experimenting with the springs. And if you go too far it's easy to return to what things were in the first place.

Concerning the hammer spring: Remember that besides driving the hammer it also acts as a brake on the slide during recoil. This is especially important to understand if your "game loads" are on the hot side to be sure they comply with the rules. A firing pin stop with a smaller radius at the bottom may be a solution to this if you lighten the hammer spring and shoot hot loads.

Last but not least, the Fuff has a fair-sized box filled with "polished" hammers and sears that were worked over by gun owners who decided to learn while doing the job themselves. The resulting expense - including labor and the cost of a new hammer and/or sear did get their attention. :what: :what: Do proceed with care.
 
Okay--so I leave the hammer/sear engagement alone, do my sear spring tweak, polish all the other surfaces, and try a 18-20# hammer spring in place of the current 23#. With the 23# in place, the slide has a harder time pushing back against the hammer.

Sound right?

I am trying to achieve a lighter pull and also to have less recoil with standard factory loads (WWB, UMC, etc.). That is why I am changing the hammer spring. Hadn't heard of a smaller radius on the FP stop to get this. Can you explain that one to me and is it something I can simply do with a file???

Greg
 
A smooth trigger is more important than a light one. I would never recommend any power tool such as a Dremel.They tend to round things off and remove too much material. I have always done trigger jobs with a hard arkansaw stone or a similar ceramic stone.I usually use a jig so that the critical surfaces are kept square and flat . I've done it many times but for a beginner it would be best to have an experienced smith demonstrate it.
 
OK, here's maybe a dumb question. How about just dry firing? Won't that polish the mating surfaces, at least of the trigger/sear/disconnector group?
 
>> I am trying to achieve a lighter pull and also to have less recoil with standard factory loads (WWB, UMC, etc.). That is why I am changing the hammer spring. Hadn't heard of a smaller radius on the FP stop to get this. Can you explain that one to me and is it something I can simply do with a file??? <<

The Old Fuff is pushed for time, but for now this is a short answer.

The various springs in the 1911 design are balanced and may do more then one thing. Changing a spring, or several ones, may have unintended consequences. The hammer spring does (at least) two things. It drives the hammer to fire a cartridge and the hammer also acts as a brake to help slow the slide during the extraction/ejection cycle. You will notice that it is harder to hand-cycle the slide when the hammer is forward then it is when the hammer is cocked. At this point a light bulb in your head should go on.

Browning set the spring tensions to work with 230-grain hardball. If you use a lighter hammer spring, and don't do something to compensate for it you will have a lighter trigger pull, but you may (or may not) get some problems with the way (or speed) the slide travels. In an extreme situation the result could be battering of the frame by the slide followed by a cracked frame. A firing pin stop with a smaller radius on the bottom resists pushing the hammer backwards to a degree, and might (just might) compensate for the lighter hammer spring. You can’t file your present stop because you need more metal, not less. Tuner has posted at least one thread on this and maybe a search will turn it up.

As a rule, you can reduce "felt recoil" by going to a stronger recoil spring, but again there are limits. Simply changing springs can be a can of worms, but it’s easy to go backwards to where you were if you have to.

Keep in mind that the pistol's original specifications called for a minimum trigger pull of 6 pounds. With the "correct" springs and hammer/sear set-up that's what you get. I consider between 4 and 5 pounds to be good on a pistol that's carried and/or used "cocked & locked." Gamers go less then that, but trigger pulls under 4 pounds make me nervous, except on bullseye target guns.

As someone pointed out dry firing will polish (actually burnish) the sear edge and hammer hooks, but I suspect that you’ve used this particular pistol enough to accomplish that.

I hold to the view that trigger pull work should be done by professionals, or individuals that are both informed and experienced. It’s sort of like do-it-yourself brain surgery. If you are determined to push ahead I would suggest you research and download any and all of 1911 Tuner’s threads that you can find. They are a gold mine of reliable information.
 
Alright, I took everyone's advice into consideration.

I polished the sides of the hammer, the inside of the frame where the trigger rides (all four sides--top, bottom, and sides), and the disconnector where it contacts the trigger bow. I did all this by hand using a common gun metal polish and a rag and q-tips for the inside-the-frame stuff. I have a new short trigger on order and will polish it before I put it in. I also polished my rails and the area on the slide that contacts the disconnector.

I left the original 22 or 23# hammer spring in. Using an RCBS pull gauge, I then tuned the sear spring's middle leaf to 16oz. with only the disconnector in. I added the sear and set the left leaf to move when I got to 32oz. This was all based on Weigand's method I found in Gun Tech at www.brownells.com.

I assembled everything and I now have a very crisp 3.5# trigger versus the 5# I used to have. I checked for follow through and all the other safety tests as well. Anything else I need to be looking for? Thanks for everyone's help.

Greg
 
It would appear that you're good to go. However you are well below both Colt and Kimber minimum trigger pull weight specifications, and therefore on your own. When reset through spring adjustments trigger pulls tend to lighten from where they were set, so watch for this very carefully. You could end up with a three pound pull or less. Also be sure there is no clearence between the safety lug and sear when the safety is "on."

Understand that there is nothing in this, or my previous messages on this thread, that condone or approve of a trigger pull of 3 1/2 pounds on a pistol that is carried holstered, and/or in Condition One (cocked & locked).
 
I'll monitor it. The safety lockup is really tight and feels and looks solid. I'll check the pull after the next few times out and adjust if I need to. Also, it's a tad on the heavy side of 3.5# right now.

Greg
 
You can use a Dremel for lots of stuff if you know how to use one. First, you can't use just the Dremel, you need the flex shaft attachment. I used to build race Jet Skis and got quite proficient with a dentist drill setup very similar to the flex shaft Dremel has doing intake and exhaust porting. It takes a LOT of practice. Most folks don't have a clue and usually grind off to much or in the wrong place. I don't know if I would use one on a trigger or safety as you don't really need to. A few file or stone strokes usually gets what you need done. Some people are too impatient and grab the Dremel and start grinding away.

Greg
 
I have four Dremels in my shop as we speak, Greg. I know how and where to use them and sears ain't one of them. Or hammer hooks. You are absolutley right!
 
Sear Polishing

if you want a bright, polished surface on your sear's primary angle without altering the angle and changing the geometry...look no further than your blue jeans. With some applied force, buff the sear on your leg with a
quick, unidirectional "swiping" motion that buffs toward the sharp edge of the sear angle It may take2-3 dozen passes, but it will buff it to a bright polish. Afterward, re-sharpen the tip of the angle on a stone by making a breakaway angle.

Escape angles vary in how wide they are, according to what kind of trigger job you're doing. In my case...since I don't do light, glass-rod trigger jobs...
I use a very small angle...just enough to see a line of stoned material
for the width of the sear in order to resharpen the buffed edge.

You can also use your blue jeans to buff the trigger bow...the disconnector
paddle and tip...the bottoms of the sear legs...and the sides of the sear to a bright shine. Just a tiny bit of J&B Bore cleaner imbedded into the material and laid on a flat, hard surface is great for polishing things on which the angles and geometry aren't critical...such as the sides of the trigger bow. Buff briskly. It'll surprise you.

Luck!

Tuner
 
I would never recommend any power tool such as a Dremel.
Click to expand...
Heed those words of wisdom. The best place for a dremel is in the closet with a case of ammo setting on it before you do any polishing.

For polishing surfaces: a popsicle stick with a strip of #600 wet/dry paper glued to it is a pretty good home made tool if you don't have a set of polishing stones. One caution: don't hold the piece in your heand as you polish it, it will rock as you do and that rounds over a flat surface. get a small vise with plastic jaws to hold the piece and "square polish" the face in question using light oil and the stick.
 
Good advice from Bountyhunter. We use Popsicle Stick Tricks in our 1911 Online Course as Captain Eagle Cheap Tools. " Hey Mr. Dremel Man.................Dremel me banana....................................daylite come and I wanna go home..........................................."
 
Hi, Tuner and guys,

Do you get a better trigger job from Levis or from Lee? I admit I have never polished on blue jeans, but I have used a leather strop for final polishing on occasion.

As for using a Dremel, I did not suggest "grinding away". I specifically mentioned using the buffing wheel with jewelers rouge, which will give a good polish without tearing up a good set of jeans. Of course, if one does not know how to use a Dremel, it can truly be a "dangerous weapon", dangerous to the gun, that is.

Jim
 
How about some Cammie BDU"s? I would think that would work well in a foxhole! You guys sure have some nifty ideas! I can learn a lot hanging around here!
 
Got my new short trigger in from Brownell's this afternoon and got it fitted and polished. That trigger pull is sweet now. Got to get to the range on Thursday to test. I will post back with results.

Greg
 
I finished up everything last night and was able to make it to the range at lunch. Put about 70 rounds downrange. No hammer follow or other malfunctions whatsoever. Nice, clean, light trigger pull now. Thanks everybody for your help.

Oh, and Fuff, I left the 23# hammer spring and 18# recoil spring in as you recommended since I often shoot relatively hot factory ball.

Greg
 
Real Men wear Carhartts.

You can identify the greenhorns on a jobsite with one glance, they're the ones running around in skin tight Levis. Too thin. Weak material, and only one layer of it. Shrinks too much, and we don't stop when it rains. Strictly for show.

Carhartt. Down in the ditch where the re-bar grows, it has to be Carhartt.

I (alone among my friends, it turns out) have worn Carhartts to a wedding.

(I've also been told that was the last time that will happen, but that's another story, and it doesn't really help my "Real Man" case.)
 
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