Politician Who Won't Say Pledge Of Allegiance May Be Recalled

[2nd Amendment]

And as I said, his Spin is refuted. Why is it the actual revisionists(the tiny atheist minority) always have to leave things out? Oh, yes, because if they don't there is no support for their claims. In this case the greatest example of this kind of convenient editing would be the fact the Treaty of Tripoli was a failure and was replaced by another[ treaty between the same parties.

The second treaty not only, as with the original, does not contain "Article 11" but neither does the ratified English translation. Now why would that be if "Article 11" were meaningful...?

For those who just don't want to bother with reading all the crap the short version of the Treaty of Tripoli is that "Article 11" was originally attributed as a quote of George Washington. This of course fell apart with a little research. Thus "Article 11" was then cited as part of a binding treaty and thus given credibility...until it was discovered that it was in fact NOT part of the actual treaty. The last gasp of the revisionists has become "Well, it was in the treaty "WE" ratified". Of course the fact that most legislators do not and have never actually read any of the legislation presented to them (especially in a time of conflict as with the Barbary pirates)and would thus have had little to no idea "Article 11" was even there(let alone that it did not exist anywhere else) is conveniently glossed over.

Shortest version, it's an "Urban Legend" which refuses to die because it serves the purpose of baffling those who don't look beyond the surface of the issue.

 

[Joe Demko]

Mr. Fool should have realized this before he decided to make a statement as an elected official.

Damn straight. We don't want our politicians to have any convictions, much less act on them.

 

[2nd Amendment]

Of course we do. But why should they expect to not reap the consequences thereof? Or are we going to stop voting against gun-grabbers since, after all, they are only standing by their convictions?

 

[rock jock]

Damn straight. We don't want our politicians to have any convictions, much less act on them.

Osama bin Laden has convictions also, and is willing to die for them. Do you want him serving as your elected official?

 

[Joe Demko]

What you guys are trying to say is that you want politicians who have and act on the same convictions you have. To which I reply: Get those politicians elected in the first place.

 

[Joe Demko]

If a politician is elected who doesn't share your convictions, but you want him to act on your convictions, rather than his, then we are back to my original statement. We don't want our politicians to have any convictions, much less act on them.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Every one wants freedom of religon and many people want freedom from religon.

Go ahead and want. There is no Constitutional guarantee of 'freedom from religion' as freely practiced by other citizens. The guarantee is that Congress shall establish no state religion.

Its got the fundies all up in arms cause they perceive him as a godless atheist

Why the pejorative remark? How are you threatened by other citizens beliefs?

 

[why_me]

how are you threatened

By other peoples lack of religon? His not saying the pledge cuase he doesnt like the words Under God has you all up in arms. You want him out. Doesnt matter what good deeds he may have done for his community you want him out cause he doesnt share your religous views. I am not threatened by anyones religon unless it is compulsory. The religous right has an agenda of bringing god into our goverment and schools. Of course the religon is Their religon and no one elses.
So what the guy doesnt say the pledge of allegiance. Some people call this the "prayer" of allegiance and you will hear amen as the last words in it.
It is a pejorative remark calling fundies fundies. Becuase that is who is raising the stink about this issue in the first place. I am sure they already have a religously right candidate for the job. One who will not only say the pledge of allegiance but also have a prayer before the meeting so god can guide them.
i just got off the phone with jesus christ. He said Let it go he didnt die for you to pray to a flag

 

[2nd Amendment]

If a politician is elected who doesn't share your convictions, but you want him to act on your convictions, rather than his, then we are back to my original statement. We don't want our politicians to have any convictions, much less act on them.

This makes no sense within the context and issues of this very site. You are implying that it is legitimate for us to oppose by all means available those who are elected and do not share, nor act on, our convictions regarding the 2A(and who among us would not employ a recall election against Schumer, Boxer, et al) but wrong for others to do the same on other issues...or just on THIS issue?

 

[Joe Demko]

I am saying that if you want a politician to act according to your convictions you have two choices:
1. Elect politicians who share your convictions.
2. Elect politicians who will bow to pressure from you rather than stand by their own convictions (if different from you).

Is there a possibility I overlooked?

 

[2nd Amendment]

Overlooked possibility: Removal of a politician if he doesn't uphold your convictions when you thought, while voting for him, that he would.

As for the other two points: The above allows the constituents to do the first. And in a non-perfect world I'll settle for the second, a politico who does what he's told by his constituents even if it goes against his grain. He's not there to represent himself and if he doesn't like that there is yet another overlooked option available to him: Resignation.

 

[Joe Demko]

Well, then I guess we are on the same page. We want politicians who do what their consituents tell them to do. The problem will be when the constituents don't all want the same things.

 

[CannibalCrowley]

It seems like the terms "Christian nation" and "nation of Christians" are being confused.

Christian nation: a nation with both a Christian government and populace
Nation of Christians: no governmental religion, yet much of the population is Christian

Secondly, it looks like more than a few people would fail the litmus test I posted earlier:

Here's a good litmus test for this issue, would you feel the same no matter what deity followed "under"? If changing God to Satan, Allah, Vishnu, Zues, would bother you while God does not; then your prejudice is deciding the issue for you instead of what is actually right.

A bigot is still a bigot; whether his prejudice lies with race or religion makes no difference.

 

[rock jock]

We want politicians who do what their consituents tell them to do. The problem will be when the constituents don't all want the same things.

That is a democratic form of govt. in a nutshell. It has worked pretty well for us these past two hundred years.

 

[Joe Demko]

Well, it has and it hasn't. As the system was originally set up, the idea was that congressmen would fill the "do what their constituents want them to do" role. Senators, since they weren't directly elected and served longer terms, were expected to be a more contemplative body, comprised of men who would act according to their (presumably good and correct) convictions instead of responding to the whims of their constituents. Direct election of senators was a big mistake.
What about appointed officials? Do you want them to act according to their convictions or yours? Before you answer, remember that it is unlikely that you will agree 100% of the time with anybody on every topic. "Activist" judges have thrown a monkey wrench into the works that I don't believe the FF's envisioned.

 

[Obiwan]

As has been stated...there is no freedom FROM religion...you also do not have a right NOT to be offended...deal with it!

This guy is performing the "adult" equivalent of taking his ball and going home.

If he has a problem with the words Under God then by all means...he doesn't have to say them.

Just like any kid in school

But sitting out the Pledge of Allegiance because of that is simply childish and speaks to a level of maturity that I would rather not see present in government.

I completely support his right to try to get the wording changed through legal means (good luck), but this is simply grandstanding and I would vote for recall.

I can't help wondering if he made a stink during his swearing in where I assume God was mentioned at least briefly.

2A is right...he is not there to represent himself...he is a public servant. His job is not to cause problems....he is supposed to help solve problems.

 

[why_me]

Just like i thought

The guy has been a trustee for 12 years. Saying the pledge was added this may By a conservative christian member

See when you add the word under god its not a pledge of allegiance
it is a "prayer" of allegiance

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_3386066,00.html

But he agrees with Habecker on one issue - the rising political power of conservative Christians is troubling.

"Any fanatically religious group scares me, especially as a voting block," said Pritchard, who owns a bed and breakfast lodge.

And, when he was gathering signatures, Pritchard said many of the residents who signed did so for what he considers the wrong reasons.

"They thought it was unpatriotic," said Pritchard, who believes Habecker has a constitutional right to free speech but is going about it in the wrong way. "(Some petition signers) don't give a damn about constitutional rights."


Letters to editor estes park
Dear Editor:

Today’s (Dec. 1) article about the recall of Town Board Trustee David Habecker in The Trail-Gazette quotes Mr. Habecker as follows in reference to the recall effort:

“It’s kind of amazing how such a small number of people can dictate how the town is operated,†he said Tuesday. “It’s a process and we’ll just deal with it as it comes.â€

He must believe it’s just a few evangelical-types who are driving the issue, but I believe otherwise. I think there are a majority of folks who have become weary of government at all levels undermining respect for religion (particularly Christianity) and the important traditions of the country, and are finally fed up. Maybe we’re finally so sick of attacks on our flag, on our Christmas displays, on the Boy Scouts of America, on the Pledge of Allegiance that we’re doing something...something that starts out “I’m mad as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore.â€

David Tanton
Dear Editor:

I recently received a letter from Trustee Lori Jeffrey-Clark and would like to thank her for taking the time to address my concerns and having the courage to respond.

In her letter, Mr. Habecker is accused of bringing his own “personal agenda to†his “fiduciary role.†Hauling the Boy Scout troop into the Town meeting, being a vocal supporter of a recall and using local newspapers as your public forum for debate all smack of a very personal agenda.

I have repeatedly heard the argument that Trustee Habecker stood up and recited the pledge for a few months before he decided to discontinue saying it. No offense, but so what? Apparently, he took some time to figure out what he wanted to do about what is obviously a moral dilemma for him. Since when did thoughtful deliberation become an unwelcome quality in an elected official?

That’s like saying there’s something weird about Bush sitting for a few minutes to collect his thoughts in the children’s classroom after hearing the news about the terrorist attacks on 9/11. Would it have been preferable if he had jumped up in a blind panic and succeeded in terrifying a bunch of grade-school kids as well as the American public?

Nowhere in the Constitution does it state that once you become an elected official, you lose your right to legal protest. Americans are probably best known for our fundamental belief in protecting that right. About 228 years ago, a group of officially elected local representatives took the whole concept one step further and drafted the Declaration of Independence. Good thing they aren’t around today—they would have been too busy being recalled.

Linda Wagner

Estes Park

 

[Nehemiah Scudder]

I heard this guy talk on Air America this morning.

From what I've read and his statements, it didn't seem to be that he was making a big fuss out of it. He didn't even start talking about it publically until the recall vote, all he did was just not say the pledge.

It's not what I would have done, but I don't have a problem with it.

BTW Just registered, so... Hi.

 

[why_me]

Just an excerpt from above letter to editor

Shows you hypocrisy at its best.
Can you say seperation of church and state
He must believe it’s just a few evangelical-types who are driving the issue, but I believe otherwise. I think there are a majority of folks who have become weary of government at all levels undermining respect for religion (particularly Christianity) and the important traditions of the country, and are finally fed up. Maybe we’re finally so sick of attacks on our flag, on our Christmas displays, on the Boy Scouts of America, on the Pledge of Allegiance that we’re doing something...something that starts out “I’m mad as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore.â€
What you do in church and in your own home or on your own property is your business. You can say what you want. Do what you want. BUt i dont want my goverment to have any symbols of religon. God doesnt need your help he is the almighty.Most powerful. ANd when i got an email from him the other day he said most of your displays are pretty tacky and embarrasing

 

[2nd Amendment]

Can you say seperation of church and state

Can you say "No such thing"? Or do you have a unique copy of the BoR or Constitution which, much like the English translation of the Treaty of Tripoli, include things that were never there before?

BUt i dont want my goverment to have any symbols of religon.

It's not "your" governemnt, it is ours. Your words underscore a key point about the control issues which drive on the anti-religious minority.

God doesnt need your help he is the almighty.Most powerful. ANd when i got an email from him the other day he said most of your displays are pretty tacky and embarrasing

And it's comments like these which serve to marginalize you even further. But when the facts and history don't support one you grab whatever there is available, eh? Fair enough.

 

[rock jock]

But he agrees with Habecker on one issue - the rising political power of conservative Christians is troubling.

Uh-huh. And I am sure you have the perfect solution for this, right? Gotta hate those religious groups exercising their 1st Amendment Rights.

 

[RealGun]

2A is right...he is not there to represent himself...he is a public servant. His job is not to cause problems....he is supposed to help solve problems.

He has personal integrity, but may have to pay a price for it. I respect it.

How about this? When a person is sworn to give testimony before a Congressional committee, the oath does not include "so help you God". I know because I took note of that recently watching CSPAN. If a person insisted that the oath include "so help me God" or insisted upon adding that, are they suddenly more in the right than this fellow's refusal to participate in religious references in government? I believe a court oath, perhaps only State or local, would have included "so help me God".

I have no doubt that he will lose his job, but I think it's a shame. Constitutionally, the issue is not relevant to his function. It is an exercise in the tyranny of the majority. It is a perfect example of why religious references should not be in government. If there was no such pledge or controversy surrounding it, these folks could stick to the business for which they were elected and for which their offices were intended.

Evangelicals are dangerous, and don't forget it. People will die because of them. They have before. Christian nation is not far removed from Arian nation in its potential for appealing to people's darker side, bigotry in particular. The Inquisition was a historical example of how bad it can get.

The irony in all this religious fervor is that reportedly church membership is steadily declining. Don't ask me for a source. Feel free to quote to the contrary. I just remember reading that recently.

I would think that gun owners would be generally more sensitive to bigotry in whatever form it might take. Making concessions to gun control or getting used to it is not unlike allowing religion into government. Give 'em an inch and they ask for another mile. That's why I refer to these few key religion items as Trojan horse's.

I follow Americans United for Separation of Church and State. There is at least one issue every week where someone somewhere is trying to inch or leap another step forward in turning our government into an extension of the Christian church. It's insidious and continuous, precisely about what the FF would have been concerned.

I can't quarrel with constitutional amendments, although I would work toward their defeat. But that is the only right way to establish the religious basis of this government. Until then, I hope judges will strike down whatever is not supported by the Constitution, and I will not refer to them as "activist" just because I don't personally favor the decisions. All I have to do is appreciate that the government is supposed to represent everyone. Religion, gender, age, race, and sexual preference are not qualifiers. Pro-life and pro-choice are not qualifiers either.

 

[why_me]

You are not coercive in the least

Does my espousing the view of this country having a seperation of church and state OPPRESS your christian views?
Why must you feel the need that this country is a christian nation? Why cant it be a nation that allows you rightly so to practice your religon,WITHOUT you trying to impose it on others?
OH you are all for putting your symbols over OUR goverment. But i know if i practiced a religon you find offensive and wanted MY religous symbols plastered over our money and goverment you would be foaming at the mouth!
How about if i proselytise satan to your children? What say you? Maybe your daughter would find smoking ganja while practicing rastafarian rites revealing.
Exactly where on geverment property can i spray the slaghtered chicken blood as i offer my sacrifice up to the earth god?
Lets print "In Zeus we trust" on our money too.
Are ya angry yet? Im praying for you right now to Ballzog the Enourmous
the god of gods. He prays for your soul and watches over you. He is almighty and most powerful. He created heaven and earth and he pays reduced rates on long distance calls too.

 

[why_me]

Pray the allegiance

Pray the Pledge 11 Step Checklist:

1. If you are not assigned seats in your class, follow the scent of garlic and find a place to sit near some foreign looking student who has swarthy skin that reminds you of anything from either a chunk of coal or a little stray pooty left behind in the whirlpool of toilet water. It is safe to assume that the parents of these students have already wasted a good part of their lives indoctrinating them with a dangerous, made-up, false religion.

2. Before the Pledge begins, if your little classmates haven't noticed that you have your hands folded in prayer, not over your heart, bring it to their attention. If you are bold enough, right before the class gets ready to say the Pledge of Allegiance - shout, "Dear Lord Jesus. . ." and then continue with the rest of the class in unison, "I pledge of allegiance to the flag. . ." This will serve as a testimony to your teacher and the other students, that you are acknowledging that the Pledge of Allegiance is a prayer - right from the start. If the teacher pauses for any reason in the Pledge, look at one of your unsaved classmates and yell, "I feel a victory coming on! Yes, Jesus!" And be sure to end the Pledge with "A-men" as well. You will be surprised how fast it catches on!

3. After the pledge is over, we suggest thanking one or more of your odd looking classmates for joining you in public prayer. This should raise their curiosity.

4. Begin to ask them what it feels like to be a Christian. They may, at first, resist your entreaties, claiming to know what you are so-called "up to." Wear them down any way you can. Finally, when they openly admit that they are not Christians, but actually embrace a false religion, like Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim - this is your opportunity to feign the look of surprise. Try to look as puzzled as you can. Ask them directly why they just falsely stated during the Pledge of Allegiance that they are under your Christian God, but just now admitted that they are not. Tell them you don't appreciate liars and neither will the principal when he gets your note.

5. More often than not, they will probably respond by saying something about "God" being universal, and it can mean whatever they want it to mean. If you can avoid the natural Christian impulse of laughing right out loud in their freshly-slapped faces, take the opportunity to sternly correct them and give them a short history lesson about how there were no Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, or Jews among the Pilgrims or Founding Fathers. Indeed, the Pilgrims were forced to turn on each other until they met the heathen, naked, alcoholic Injuns.

6. Take it a step further and begin to raise your voice slightly. Make it absolutely clear to them that there were no Muslims, Jews or Hindus who gave their lives to create the country that they are sitting in right now. And if their foreign parents want to raise them under a false God, then keep it at home - because Jesus runs THIS classroom!

7. At this point, understand that you have planted a seed of faith, and it should be harvested immediately! Be careful though! Avoid getting too excited. Don't spill the beans and tell them all they're going straight to Hell. Although this is true, we suggest you break it to them gently by reaching into your desk and slowly pulling out your Bible. Do not break eye contact with your potential converts even if you have to grab a tuft of their filthy, unwashed hair to hold them in place!

8. Refer to your Bible as "The Holy Book" and open it slowly like you are expecting the Lord to come out from between the pages and pounce on your soon-to-be-Christian friends. Most foreign trash is very superstitious and will probably become bug-eyed, and possibly soil their drawers, in the face of your new, mysterious powers.. Tell them that this Holy Book says that every single religion in the whole wide world is a false religion. Except for yours.

9. At this point, tell the students that you will be highly offended and consider it a hate crime against your religion if they do not do you the courtesy of bowing their heads and shutting their eyes and repeating after you.

10. Here is your window of opportunity - before anyone has a chance to open their mouth, start to pray this prayer and refuse to be interrupted: Poppa God, My Father in Heaven, we've just finished praying the Pledge of Allegiance to You. Everyone here openly acknowledges that we are not members of one nation under Allah or Buddha, or some other false god but we are one nation under YOU! You are God, the Father and through your Son, Jesus Christ, we acknowledge the sovereignty and ultimate authority of our Christian Nation above all other nations on earth. If any of us here are unsaved, we ask Jesus Christ to come into our hearts and stomp out the demons of Hindu, the demons of Allah, the fat little demons of Buda, and if we are Jewish, we ask you to forgive us for killing your Son and for Barbra Streisand. A-men.

11. If your classmates just prayed that prayer, it means they're saved. Take down their names and addresses and phone numbers immediately. Ask to be dismissed from class. Find a pay phone and call your pastor* with the information so that he can call their parents and tell them the good news - that someone just paid a ransom for their little children and they have been delivered forever into the unbreakable clutches of the Living God. If your pastor knows what he is doing, he will also want to use this opportunity to lead some confused parents to Christ. Before you know it, you will have assisted in securing a hoard of eager, tithing church members to your local church roster.

 

[R.H. Lee]

The christophobia here is mind boggling. Nobody wants, and nobody is advocating a theocracy. In fact, a theocracy is prohibited by the 1st Amendment. The majority of people in this country believe in God, and the majority of those are Christians. That is the country in which you live.

I don't support religious activism in government for the purpose of compelling anyone to do, not do, or believe anything. OTOH, government has no business restricting the free exercise of religion by individuals on public property. And that is exactly what government is doing right now all over the country, especially in public schools. Forbidding nativity scenes, banning prayer, even going so far as to outlaw Christmas trees or even red and green plates at school functions during this time of year (red and green plates can be interpreted as promoting Christmas, dontcha know, and we can't have that).

So you anti-theists should be warned. The pendulum swings both ways. The harder you swing it in our direction, the harder it will come back at you.