Powder and Patched Ball Questions

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MtnCreek

MtnCreek

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Dec 8, 2010
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Georgia, Dixie
I need a little help getting back into muzzle loaders. I have a little exp from long ago, but haven't messed with them in a long time. My son is interested in shooting a muzzle loader, so I got him a Lyman Deerstalker, 50 cal percussion. I'll gather up what I have as far as tools / epuip and buy what I don't have or can't find. I'm wanting to go ahead and buy powder, bullets, ... now, but not sure what to get.

I believe this is a 1:48 barrel. It should shoot rd balls, correct? Assuming yes, .490 ball + 0.010 patch or something else? Are prelubed patches the way to go for someone starting out? If I'm not likely to get good accuracy with a rd ball, any suggestions for an economical bullet?

What direction should I look as far as powder? Real black powder is not available anywhere near me that I know of. Are there better substitutes than Pyrodex RS? Are there some granular (not pellet) substitutes that will Not work with a #11 cap? Are some less corrosive than other?

Volume measure vs weight? I used a brass volume measure that was adjustable back when. Is that still the way to go? Anyone know if black power or substitutes can be weighed on a standard reloading scale Ohaus beam?

Thanks!
 
Well. I cannot say it will shoot with that ball and patch or not. That is a test thing.

Pyrodex is probably the worst sub on the market. It is the most corrosive and in my experience the one that fouls the worst.

I like 777. However I read that the alliant brand sub is even better.

They are still all measured by volume not weight.
 
For me, I like real black powder. Period. Measure by volume. The 1:48 twist shoots both balls and slugs/sabots very well. I got frustrated with the lack of real black powder locally and bought 5lbs of FFFG from Graf and Sons and paid the haz mat. Even with subscale cannon, I won't have to worry for a long time.

I would suggest buying a book by a known author, something you can both refer to, refresh your memory on the tips and tricks,and talk the same language.
https://www.amazon.com/Muzzleloadin...sr=8-2&keywords=Muzzleloading+by+Toby+Bridges
 
BigBore45 said:
Well. I cannot say it will shoot with that ball and patch or not. That is a test thing.

Pyrodex is probably the worst sub on the market. It is the most corrosive and in my experience the one that fouls the worst.

I like 777. However I read that the alliant brand sub is even better.

They are still all measured by volume not weight.
Click to expand...
I didn't know Alliant made a BP sub. I'll have to check that out now.

Yeah, Pyrodex sucks, but at least it's cheap. I won't be buying anymore of it though, it's fairly accurate, but the mess and corrosion is terrible. Even after I clean my revolvers really good, I still find brown crap in certain spots and the bore still gets brown streaks in it even after I've run ballistol patches through it several times and dry patches.

I don't get that with Triple 7.
 
Thanks everyone for the info.

I've seen 777 on shelves around. Assuming light to moderate charges, do you think I should look for FF or FFF?

The way I was taught to seat the ball was push it till it stopped, then smack it with the ramrod till the rod bounced back. Is this correct?

Thanks.
 
I have the same rifle. It is indeed a 1:48" twist and what it was designed for depends on the rifling groove depth. The blues model is deeper meant for a patched ball and the stainless has shallow grooves meant for a conical/sabot, but either will shoot both if you work with them.

Mine is blued and I intend on shooting patched ball for most everything. I've merely broken it in (~200 shots) using nasty Pyrodex and so I haven't really worked for accuracy changing one thing at a time but it has given about 4" groups at 50 yds (partly due to needing glasses, which I finally fixed). But with a 320 grn Lee REAL I got the few shots nearly touching at the same distance WHEN I us d a felt wad to help seal the bore. The first shot lacked a wad and had keyholed landing about a foot left and several inches low at the same 50 yds.

A brand new rifle will have sharp edges on those rifling lands that will cut the patches. Shooting it about 200 times will break it in or you can scrub the barrel with a scotch pad or a compound. I'll be doing that next new barrel as it saves time and effort.

People often claim that .50 cal is the teetering point between 2 and 3F. I use 3F but that's because I also feed 2 revolvers and don't want a bunch of differing powders.

Triple 7 is said to cause a "crud ring" but then it seems this is mosty found in inlines shooting larger charges with a hotter ignition. I've not tried it in mine yet.

If you got him the blues model the grooves are said to be about .520" with a .502" bore otherwise they state it has about .510" grooves. You generally want the patch thickness to fill that in. So for the blued model this is a 0.03" (.520" - .490" ball) deficit needing about a patch thickness of 0.015" (0.015" x 2 = 0.03"). Now target shooters often claim an even tighter fit increases the accuracy. And some hunters prefer a thinner patch for ease of loading a second shot and/or to leave the short starter behind.

Some even use a felt wad under the patched ball. Seems a bit more tedious than necessary.

Once an accurate powder charge has been found it's quite helpful to mark the rod so as to easily be able to tell if you loaded it.
 
Forgot to mention that substitute powders are to be measured by volume. Black powder's volume will weigh close to that. For instance I use an adjustable rifle powder measure for my revolvers (.44/.45 cal) as well. I use 3F Olde Eynsford black powder and Triple 7. My more accurate 30 grn charge for my .44 using Olde E actually weighs about 33 grns. But then being a rifle measure it's likely calibrated for 2F. 3F will fill in a bit more thus weighing a little more. But then not all black powders are equal.

You can certainly weigh substitute powder charges ONCE you ar certain of that volume. Match shooters often do this regardless of powder type used and store this in some for of container.

One accessory I absolutely love is a bore mop.

Also there is a 1/2" shallow hole drilled into my antler short starter to use as a palm saver (saves space and keeps an additional item from being carried afield).

https://s17.postimg.org/6if3ws34v/IMG_2306.jpg
 
This may not apply? In the instruction for the Remington inline rifle.

Triple Seven powder is NOT intended to
be used as a volume-to-volume replace-
ment for back powder or Pyrodex. To
obtain similar velocities and pressures as
black powder or Pyrodex powder, you must
decrease the volume of Triple Seven pow-
der by 15%. On a volumetric basis to rep-
licate the same pressure and velocity of a
100 grain of black powder or Pyrodex load,
you must calibrate your volumetric powder
measure to 85 grains for Triple Seven.
For the latest information for Pryodex or
Triple Seven powders visit the Hodgdon’s
web site at www.hodgdon.com.
 
3f BP is ok for .50 rifle? That's nice. I have a mostly full can of 3f sitting unused but no more 2f I use in my rifle.

If this is true, then I'm back in business!

My normal load of 2f BP and/or pyrodex is 85g... Would I still use 85g of 3f?
 
243winxb said:
This may not apply? In the instruction for the Remington inline rifle.

Triple Seven powder is NOT intended to
be used as a volume-to-volume replace-
ment for back powder or Pyrodex. To
obtain similar velocities and pressures as
black powder or Pyrodex powder, you must
decrease the volume of Triple Seven pow-
der by 15%. On a volumetric basis to rep-
licate the same pressure and velocity of a
100 grain of black powder or Pyrodex load,
you must calibrate your volumetric powder
measure to 85 grains for Triple Seven.
For the latest information for Pryodex or
Triple Seven powders visit the Hodgdon’s
web site at www.hodgdon.com.
Click to expand...

That information about reducing the loads by 15% was to replicate the weaker powders available then. Swiss and Olde Eynsford actually give slightly higher velocities with the same volume.
 
milemaker13 said:
3f BP is ok for .50 rifle? That's nice. I have a mostly full can of 3f sitting unused but no more 2f I use in my rifle.

If this is true, then I'm back in business!

My normal load of 2f BP and/or pyrodex is 85g... Would I still use 85g of 3f?
Click to expand...

Most certainly. If there is no max load listing given the general rule of thumb is to decrease by 10%. But it is safe with some people even using it in their larger bores including 12 ga. However I've read that with heavier loads in 3F the intial ignition pressure can deform the shot pellets making for a crappy pattern.

3F generally needs slightly less powder for similar results and burns cleaner than 2F. But some rifles just are more accurate with 2 or even 1F.
 
milemaker13 said:
3f BP is ok for .50 rifle? That's nice. I have a mostly full can of 3f sitting unused but no more 2f I use in my rifle.

If this is true, then I'm back in business!

My normal load of 2f BP and/or pyrodex is 85g... Would I still use 85g of 3f?
Click to expand...

Oh, and all substitute powders are a volume for volume equivalent.
 
243winxb said:
Loading data should be in the manual, if a new gun.

3F is ok for mid-range target loads.
2F for full loads.
Click to expand...

3F is good for full loads also. They state a max charge for their .50 cals as being 110 grns of 2F or 90 grns of 3F with a ball, 100 grns 2F or 90 grns 3F with a bullet up to 240 grns, and 100 grns 2F or 80 grns 3F with a bullet up to 335 grns or a conical up to 420 grns.
 
milemaker13 said:
My normal load of 2f BP and/or pyrodex is 85g... Would I still use 85g of 3f?
Click to expand...

Forgot about this part.... You certain could as long as it doesn't go beyond the max charge, which I highly doubt it does. But reducing by about 10% should give similar velocities if using the same type of Powder (in other words using P in place of RS or Select). Using 3F standard Goex might need all 85 grns to achieve a similar velocity and it might even need a bit more, whereas Olde E or T7 might need further reduction because they are a little more energetic than Pyrodex.
 
Well your manual should have a recommendation what and how to load
normally FFFg powder in 50 cal or larger I would start 60 or 65 grains. Then work up until POA POI fall off back down 5 gr and that is your most accurate load with that projectile
1:48 is supposed to be a happy middle ground for RB and conical
My CVA 50 cal prefers conicals but does shoot RB well too
I prefer conicals as I am lazy and don't want to bother with patches.
set target at 50 yd get on paper. I have found if you adjust windage first lot of time the elevate will fall inline too
if it don't then dial it in.
Unless sights are hit hard and knocked out, they should never need adjusting again, unless you change loads
haven't touched my sights in 20 years still shoots where I aim.

accessories. I have several need something email me [email protected] I might have it
 
Don't overthink this. Use a ball/patch combination that will keep the ball from rolling out of the barrel. Use a non-petroleum based lubricant on the patch. Don't think you have to shoot maximum powder charges...60 grain powder charges will blow a lead ball completely through a deer. See which combination gives you the best accuracy by shooting on paper. And geez, have fun, don't get uptight about doing it the "right" way. There is no one "right" way.

Eliminate air space between ball and powder. Use a lube compatible with your choice of powder. Clean the damn gun when you get home.

Go forth and make smoke! :)
 
milemaker13 said:
3f BP is ok for .50 rifle? That's nice. I have a mostly full can of 3f sitting unused but no more 2f I use in my rifle.

If this is true, then I'm back in business!

My normal load of 2f BP and/or pyrodex is 85g... Would I still use 85g of 3f?
Click to expand...
I use FFFG in my 50 and 54.
 
What direction should I look as far as powder? Real black powder is not available anywhere near me that I know of.

The lack of black powder is not a game changer. i use Alliant Black MZ powder almost exclusively in my muzzleloaders. Stuff is $10.00 per one pound can at Sportsman's Warehouse. Black MZ works well for me.

Are there better substitutes than Pyrodex RS?

IMO: Maybe. But no powder is more consistent than Pyrodex.

Are there some granular (not pellet) substitutes that will Not work with a #11 cap?

A No. 11 cap will not light BlackHorn 209 powder.

Are some less corrosive than other?

Yes, Pyrodex is the most corrosive of the black powder substitutes. IMO: Pyrodex is no more cruddy or more corrosive than black powder. Triple Seven, JSG and Black MZ are minimally corrosive. However, regardless of the powder used the rifle should be cleaned ASAP after firing.

What to do if your rifle still cuts patches after trying different grain loadings: Put a piece of scotch brite on a jag with a few drops of oil and swab the bore. Replace the scotch bright as many times as necessary and swab until the sharp edges of the rifling are smoothed. It usually requires 100-200 strokes to smooth out the bore.

What to use for patch lube. Lots of stuff makes good patch lube. Go Jo hand cleaner works well. Just smear a little on the underside of the patch. Frontier's patch lubes work very well:

https://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com/f44-frontier-s-patch-lubricants

What to use for patch material: Drill cloth works very well. Hobby Lobby and Jo Anne Fabrics sell it.
 
alsaqr said:
What direction should I look as far as powder? Real black powder is not available anywhere near me that I know of.

The lack of black powder is not a game changer. i use Alliant Black MZ powder almost exclusively in my muzzleloaders. Stuff is $10.00 per one pound can at Sportsman's Warehouse. Black MZ works well for me.

Are there better substitutes than Pyrodex RS?

IMO: Maybe. But no powder is more consistent than Pyrodex.

Are there some granular (not pellet) substitutes that will Not work with a #11 cap?

A No. 11 cap will not light BlackHorn 209 powder.

Are some less corrosive than other?

Yes, Pyrodex is the most corrosive of the black powder substitutes. IMO: Pyrodex is no more cruddy or more corrosive than black powder. Triple Seven, JSG and Black MZ are minimally corrosive. However, regardless of the powder used the rifle should be cleaned ASAP after firing.

What to do if your rifle still cuts patches after trying different grain loadings: Put a piece of scotch brite on a jag with a few drops of oil and swab the bore. Replace the scotch bright as many times as necessary and swab until the sharp edges of the rifling are smoothed. It usually requires 100-200 strokes to smooth out the bore.

What to use for patch lube. Lots of stuff makes good patch lube. Go Jo hand cleaner works well. Just smear a little on the underside of the patch. Frontier's patch lubes work very well:

https://www.frontiermuzzleloading.com/f44-frontier-s-patch-lubricants

What to use for patch material: Drill cloth works very well. Hobby Lobby and Jo Anne Fabrics sell it.
Click to expand...
I've also used old T shirts cut up, but I'm just cheap, but they seem to work fine for me, can get several from the non torn parts of an old T.
 
Actually Pyrodex actually is much more corrosive than black powder. A fella did a test in which he placed 3 steel plates on a board with Triple 7, Pyrodex, and black powder on it and ignited them and then left them in the garage for 4 days. Pyrodex was certainly worse.

Another fella on another forum mentioned something about what's in the fouling of Pyrodex and it's also bad for the lock regardless of cleaning it as soon as you get home. It's minimal but over time it takes its toll.

And another fella, along with myself, have noticed that despite a thorough cleaning you'll find orange on your oiled patch run down the bore days later.
 
Lots of folks have done "tests" on the corrosiveness of Pyrodex. Yep, the guy in your post left his stuff in the garage for four days. No one has yet proven to my satisfaction that Pyrodex is more corrosive than black powder. Both black powder and Pyrodex contain potassium nitrate, charcoal and sulfur. The primary culprit of black powder and Pyrodex corrosiveness are the residues of sulfur. Triple Seven contains the same ingredients as black powder and Pyrodex minus the sulfur: Triple Seven is not unduly corrosive.

Started using Pyrodex when it first hit the market in 1977-78. Since then i've used a truck load of the stuff. i have a CVA rifle bought in 1999. That gun has fired well over 3,000 rounds using Pyrodex. The bore is pristine.

Every year before deer season i used to get a couple dozen muzzleloaders left uncleaned since the last deer season. Their owners expected me to magically restore their guns to shooting condition: They were often disappointed. Those fired with Pyrodex and with black powder were equally cruddy and often ruined. Breech plugs were stuck in inline guns, nipples were stuck, the bores were ruined, the tangs and breeches of the sidelocks were pitted, the first few inches of the barrels were also pitted.

Clean your gun properly soon after firing: There will be no corrosion from the firing of black powder. Pyrodex or any other black powder substitute.
 
Question on cleaning. Ater I clean the bore, how do I keep it from getting light rust film while waiting for it to dry? In the past I cleaned with hot water and dawn dish soap and treated the bore with bore butter, no oil. I would always have some rust when swabbing with bore butter. Thanks.
 
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