Powder and Patched Ball Questions

[rodwha]

Question on cleaning. Ater I clean the bore, how do I keep it from getting light rust film while waiting for it to dry? In the past I cleaned with hot water and dawn dish soap and treated the bore with bore butter, no oil. I would always have some rust when swabbing with bore butter. Thanks.

I like using Ballistol as it's an oil that will readily mix with water. This when the water evaporates it leaves just the oil behind.

It was created for the German military in the early 1900's iirc and is useful on wood and leather as well.

However I've read some claim it's not a good long term oil. I've gone back through my bores every 9-12 months and see all is well.

Some people make what's called Moose Milk mixing it with many parts water and using it as a patch lube as well. I haven't tried this yet.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Almost all my patch and ball shooting has been done with Pyrodex and Triple Seven powder. Black powder has always been a PITA to get where I live.
Both powders supposed to be measured by the volume equal to black powder https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf
I clean my guns after use with boiling water and have not had any issues with corrosion.
Shooting a patched ball accurately requires some experimenting with patch thickness and material, lube, ball size and powder charge.
Finding the used patches can tell you a lot. Holes either cut by the rifling or burned usually ruin accuracy. Better lube and or tougher patch material may help. Burned patches can also mean gas is getting past the patch, a larger ball or thicker patch should help. New barrels that are cutting patches usually get polished after a number of rounds.
There is a limit to how fast a patched ball can be pushed in a given barrel before it trips on the rifling. Slower twist and deeper grooves generally can achieve greater velocity with accuracy.

 

[MtnCreek]

Where’s a good place to purchase BP odds & ends online? Selection at places like midway and brownells is pretty slim.

I bought some fff triple 7 and some other items I know I’ll need. Also ended up getting an 1851 36 cal (always wanted a Reb revolver, being unreconstructed and all...). Anyone have a round about start charge for fff triple 7 and .375 rd ball with 36 cal cabalas prelubed wad between? Sorry for veering so far from topic; eventually someone will read this in a search and wonder how it made its way to this. Thanks for all the help.

 

[rodwha]

I buy my powders from Grafs. I buy caps from BassPro or Cabelas along with various other things. I buy felt from DuroFet. I buy other odds and ends from Dixie Gun Works and Track of The Wolf. And then I've purchased several things from a forum member (DD4lifeusmc) and a retired machinist on a traditional forum (ram rod, short starter, and wad punches).

 

[Panzerschwein]

This is some of the best information to be found anymore on the traditional muzzleloader:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The way I was taught to seat the ball was push it till it stopped, then smack it with the ramrod till the rod bounced back. Is this correct?

NO!

Sorry to seem like shouting but this does nothing to a round ball except deform it and accuracy suffers. The ball needs to be seated on top of the powder, NOT beaten into submission. The ball is not supposed to obdurate onto the rifling when rammed down, which is a large college word meaning it squishes lead into the grooves in the barrel, nor does it do so when fired. Unpatched conical bullets do obdurate, but if one is pre-deforming them during the loading procedure and notices an increase in accuracy..., the bullet didn't fit right in the first place. The round ball is supposed to spin because the patch grips it. Yes I know there is a group of shooters that may be seen doing this at the range, but I wonder how the folks got such good accuracy, heck Legendary, from their muzzle loaders using wooden ramrods, mostly without even a metal tip, so could not beat the ball down on top of the powder?
Here's a quote from a book by an author who was a world class marksman in muzzle loading rifles, just so you know it's not just my personal opinion:

"Having decided upon the approximate charge of powder for the rifle and made a charger [measure] with which to measure this bulk charge, we are ready to load the rifle. Holding the barrel in as nearly vertical position as possible and having filled the charger even full from the powder horn, pour the charge carefully into the barrel; then place an oiled linen, or other cloth, patch over the muzzle being careful to center it over the bore. Next place a round ball, with the sprue up [author’s emphasis], in the center of the patch – be sure that the ball is truly centered in the patch – press the ball down with the thumb even with the muzzle, then apply the straight starter [short starter] holding the left hand around the muzzle and the starter, and strike the knob of the starter with the ball of the right hand thus forcing the ball down the bore the length of the starter rod. Remove the starter and holding the ramrod short with both hands push hard and straight to start the bullet some six or eight inches down the bore from which point the ball should be easily pushed down onto the powder. Do not [author’s emphasis] ram, or pound, the ball down the bore and do not [author’s emphasis] “whang” the ball with the ramrod onto the powder – simply seat the ball firmly on the powder with a light pressure on the ramrod. "

Ned Roberts The Muzzle-Loading Caplock Rifle

Concerning powder, it's not the sulfur that makes the Pyrodex "more" corrosive. Pyrodex has less sulfur than Black Powder. The sulfur is what makes the charcoal and salt-peter touch off so fast. It's a catalyst. The very first gunpowder used in cannons didn't have the sulfur, and needed a heated wire to touch it off (we're talking medieval artillery). When they discovered the addition of the sulfur, they found it was a lot easier to set off and more reliable (and more dangerous as it increased accidents.) Pyrodex is reverse engineered back toward that original powder, and has 8% sulfur, while GOEX BP has as much as 20%, though on average it's probably about 15%. The low sulfur content is what makes Pyrodex slightly more corrosive. It burns slower and as such and as observed, is dirtier, giving an incomplete burn, so has more residual chemical to absorb moisture and to make corrosive compounds. Triple 7 omits sulfur, and adds three more chemicals to the formula to get a more complete burn.

Rust? Don't "wait" for it to dry, and don't use HOT water. Cold water and soap works just fine. You can either use dry patches to dry the bore followed by WD-40..., OR some folks use a patch with alcohol to speed evaporation, followed immediately with WD-40. Now depending on the environment where you are, you still might find some rusting as humidity varies, so you may need to try something like Birchwood Casey Barricade when finished with the WD-40.

LD

 

[rodwha]

I used WD-40 prior to Ballistol. What I read from others online was WD-40 eventually leaves a film behind that's not so good.

As Ballistol will mix with water and allow it to evaporate leaving behind just the oil it seems most fitting for this application.

At the range I like to use an alcohol swab after a wet patch when swabbing to help evaporate the water.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

It's "Obturate"

 

[xXxplosive]

Black powder and petroleum distolites / WD-40 are a no, no.....

 

[alsaqr]

Started using Pyrodex when it came on the market in the mid to late 1970s. One of my inline guns has fired over 3,000 rounds using Pyrodex. The bore is pristine.

No one has yet convinced me that Pyrodex is cruddier or more corrosive than black powder. Some folks blame the potassium perchlorate for the corrosiveness
of Pyrodex residue. These same folks forget that all the substitute powders with the exception of BH 209 contain potassium perchlorate. None are as cruddy as black powder or Pyroex.

Every fall for many years i scoped, sighted in and tuned up muzzleloaders for other folks. Attempted to clean up a dozen or two neglected muzzleloaders nearly every fall. If not cleaned, a gun that fired black powder will be just as damaged as the one that fired Pyrodex.

Yes, there's all kinds of mythological stuff out there about legendary marksmanship with patched round ball rifles. In the 1960-70s i attended lots of shooting matches. My mentor won many of those matches; i watched folks walk away when he showed up. Most of those matches were held at distances <100 yards.

My favorite patched ball powder is Black MZ. Black MZ likes a tight fitting ball seated hard on the powder. You can't get there with a wooden ramrod.

 

[rodwha]

Started using Pyrodex when it came on the market in the mid to late 1970s. One of my inline guns has fired over 3,000 rounds using Pyrodex. The bore is pristine.

No one has yet convinced me that Pyrodex is cruddier or more corrosive than black powder. Some folks blame the potassium perchlorate for the corrosiveness
of Pyrodex residue. These same folks forget that all the substitute powders with the exception of BH 209 contain potassium perchlorate. None are as cruddy as black powder or Pyroex.

Every fall for many years i scoped, sighted in and tuned up muzzleloaders for other folks. Attempted to clean up a dozen or two neglected muzzleloaders nearly every fall. If not cleaned, a gun that fired black powder will be just as damaged as the one that fired Pyrodex.

Yes, there's all kinds of mythological stuff out there about legendary marksmanship with patched round ball rifles. In the 1960-70s i attended lots of shooting matches. My mentor won many of those matches; i watched folks walk away when he showed up. Most of those matches were held at distances <100 yards.

My favorite patched ball powder is Black MZ. Black MZ likes a tight fitting ball seated hard on the powder. You can't get there with a wooden ramrod.

The fella who conducted that test used photobucket so I can't post a worthy link. However he contacted me a bit ago on another forum concerning this topic and should be getting back to me soon I'd imagine. His test clearly shows Pyrodex is more corrosive than BP. Granted both made a mess of the steel after 4 days but Pyrodex did more.

 

[AJumbo]

Good method, use a witness mark on the ramrod to be sure.

It's really not necessary to bounce the ramrod off the ball. It can actually damage your accuracy, and there's no real good way to know hard you're bouncing the ramrod. Using your palm saver, press the ball down onto the powder. For safety, you only need to be sure the ball is all the way down on the powder. You can develop a feel for how hard you're pressing the rod. I've seen competition shooters put their rifle on a bathroom scale and watch the dial as they press, looking to seat the ball with a given amount of effort. For rolling tin cans it's kinda overkill.

Your fifty will be usable with charges between 25 gr and "Ouch." Your load chain will be developed by one thing alone- experimentation. Shoot the rifle, mess with the charges and patch material and lube. Bond with it. This isn't really slide-rule stuff, it's about getting your hands and your firearm dirty.

 

[alsaqr]

Yep, i'm familiar with the guy who left his test specimens his garage for four days: Proves nothing. Other "scientists" testing gun lubricants put their test specimens out on the weather for days or weeks then declare a real winner.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I clean my front loaders after shooting and never worry about which powder is more corrosive.

 

[rodwha]

Yep, i'm familiar with the guy who left his test specimens his garage for four days: Proves nothing. Other "scientists" testing gun lubricants put their test specimens out on the weather for days or weeks then declare a real winner.

Well, actually it shows, and therefor proves, quite a bit. As they say the proof is in the pudding:

https://s17.postimg.org/4tif7w52n/cleaned.jpg

Regardless how you may feel about this it certainly shows what happens if one were to leave their gun I cleaned for several days. Pyrodex most certainly did more damage no matter how you want to view it. It is what it is.

Of course if you clean it up when you get home you shouldn't have much to worry about. But to say Pyrodex isn't as or any more corrosive than BP isn't true.

 

[drobs]

For those looking for real black powder Graf's has a 1/2 off Hazmat sale ending today - 1/31/17.
4lbs min order. Hazmat = $10 instead of the normal $20. Shipping is $7.95 per order.
https://www.grafs.com/content/index/contentId/57

I'd recommend ordering 10lbs:

5lbs of FFg - $15.99/LB
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5404

5lbs of FFFg - $15.99/LB
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5405

They also carry Swiss, Old Eynsford, and Goex.

Chatting w/ Mr. JBar here, seems his cartridge revolvers are loaded with 2F. I plan to try it in my C&B revolvers and Lyman Great Plains 54 next vacation.

 

[alsaqr]

Well, actually it shows, and therefor proves, quite a bit.

Really!!!!!

i thoroughly detest black powder in all its brands and forms. Before giving up my ATF explosive storage license i used half a pallet of black blasting powder along with DuPont, Goex and Swiss to blast cedar stumps.

 

[rodwha]

Really!!!!!

i thoroughly detest black powder in all its brands and forms. Before giving up my ATF explosive storage license i used half a pallet of black blasting powder along with DuPont, Goex and Swiss to blast cedar stumps.

Why do you detest BP?

As I like to keep things as simple as possible and have two revolvers meant for hunting I wanted a powder that gave a reasonable amount of oomph figuring performance on par with a .44 Spl was my minimum to feel comfortable. This excluded many powders. And having too many hobbies demanding my funds left me buying one pound at a time locally. It was 3F Triple 7 for a good while. On traditional forums I kept reading the praises of using real black powder and was curious but couldn't find Swiss despite living in the large city of San Antonio. But once the ammo crunch years back hit I couldn't find my powder for months on end, which made me rework my funds to spend that month's money on ordering powder finding i about broke even with the shipping and HazMat fees by buying 3 lbs. And then Goex came out with Olde Eynsford that performed as well as T7 and Swiss but came with a lighter price tag. So I tried it. It has given me the same group sizes and POI as the same charge of T7. Now I buy more of it but often do still buy a little T7 here and there. Since T7 compresses much more I could cram more into a chamber but my more accurate loads don't use max charges so it's a non issue for me.

My father gave me 3 lbs of Pyrodex and that's what I used at first. I liked the smell but I hated the fouling it left. It was almost sticky or gooey. So I used most of the rest to break in a new rifle. I still have small portions of P and RS, but I'm not sure I'll be using them since it's not a powder I like and won't be buying any more.

 

[alsaqr]

Everyone has their druthers. i'd druther not use black powder.

As I like to keep things as simple as possible and have two revolvers meant for hunting

Black MZ likes a tight fitting sabot/ball seated very hard on the powder. Don't personally know anyone who uses Black MZ in a cap and ball revolver.

From the Black MZ website:

Black MZ functions best when heavily compressed by the seated sabot.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

It's "Obturate"

LD

 

[MCgunner]

I never found Pyrodex corroded any worse than black powder. Indeed, Pyrodex IS black powder, with some sort of flame retardant which keeps it from being classed as a low explosive. When the gooberment regulations went into effect in the 70s to keep small shops from stocking BP, it disappeared and Pyrodex came out to replace it on shelves. It worked fine in my revolvers and I still use it because it's the closest sub to BP and gives that sulfur smell. I thoroughly clean my guns as soon as I'm done shooting and do not find any excessive corrosion. I also squirt 'em down inside and out with WD40 to displace the water I bathed 'em in which helps.

I keep 777 around. It makes my CVA Wolf shoot HARD, some powerful stuff. I've just NOW started using Blackhorn 209. This stuff will NOT go off with anything, but the proper 209 primer and breech plug designed for the stuff. However, folks here told me about the Magspark... http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/mag-spark.html ...which totally changes a sidelock rifle to even fire Blackhorn 209! I haven't yet bought a breech plug for my CVA Wolf or a drill bit to drill out the old one, but I may get around to that. The magspark I had to try. I had a conversion for small rifle primers for the Hawken, but it wouldn't set off BH209. I must say, I'm totally impressed with it. I installed the old small rifle conversion in my cheap CVA Plainsman I bought used off Gunbroker and now it is 100 percent reliable with Pyrodex. This gun is a 1:48 and I bought it so I could shoot patched RB which it does very well. My Hawken has a 1:24 twist and will only shoot heavy Minies or sabots. I shoot full bore sized Minies in it. It really likes the 385 grain Hornady Great Plains and I have a 360 grain Minie ball mold for it, also, from Lee.

I didn't like BH209 at first, stuff takes a blow torch to set off. But, I didn't know about the breech plug thing for it when I tried it in 2010 when I first heard of the stuff. I knew I couldn't shoot it in a sidelock, but with the magspark, I sure can! This stuff is like smokeless as far as fouling. I can sit down and load and load and never have to brush the bore to maintain accuracy. I can leave it a few days before cleaning and I can clean it with standard rifle solvents like Hoppes number 9.

BH209 is quite expensive, though, but it's available at a gun shop near you. I only shoot it in my hawken, but will shoot it in my CVA Wolf eventually when I get the proper breech plug for it.

It ain't like that Magspark conversion is a new idea, either, first came along in the 1860s. Apparently they had problems with ignition, especially in wet weather, even when BP was everywhere.

 

[robhof]

Question on cleaning. Ater I clean the bore, how do I keep it from getting light rust film while waiting for it to dry? In the past I cleaned with hot water and dawn dish soap and treated the bore with bore butter, no oil. I would always have some rust when swabbing with bore butter. Thanks.

Ballistol works great, diluted the oil sticks to the metal keeping water/ rust at bay.

 

[whughett]

I don't allow the gun to air dry. Remove the wood, clean under warm running tap water. Then A few seconds with an air compressor and the gun is dry, a generous spray of billistol into the internals, then air directed into the various openings distributes the oil around the moving parts. Flash rust is a thing of the past. Revolvers only for me, long guns have there own unique cleaning variables I suspect. An upside to the Remingtons is the ability to remove the trigger guard with one screw and flush the internals under the running tap.

 

[MtnCreek]

Does anyone have a suggestion for a small powder measure that will work well in the 10 to 20 gr range? Thanks.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

.357 shell casing... or .38 if that's too big. Best to check it with an adjustable measure and adjust the shell casing. An old term for a non-adjustable "measure", meaning it threw the same load of powder, was "charger".

LD