Powder puff loads-light or heavy?

[JamieC]

I'm want to load some real light loads for the wife's 38 snubbie, what would give me the lightest recoil, light bullets, (105gr), heavy bullets, (158gr). I hear it both ways. I have some 125gr LSWC and some Bullseye I'm going to try some real light loads, see how it works. I'll load 'down' till I get tumbling or a bullet gets stuck in the barrel. If promising, I'll order some Bayou Bullets and try some more.

 

[moxie]

I've had very good luck with 125 LRN and Bullseye. Mild and accurate.

 

[Starter52]

2.2 grains of Bullseye and a 125 grain lead bullet is a good place to start.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Why reduce the .38 Special to where it's useless because of recoil? Why not go to something with less recoil and probably a more effective bullet?

 

[guncheese]

"Why reduce the .38 Special to where it's useless because of recoil? Why not go to something with less recoil and probably a more effective bullet?

the classic target load is 2.7gr of BE under a 148gr WC

we are talking a load for someone to enjoy shooting out of a gun that isnt that fun to start with

my plinker is 3gr of titegroup under a 148gr WC and its a bit warm really especially if i shortend up the barrel a bit more

if it isnt fun to shoot
the Fair Lady wont want to shoot it
and a guys version of fun is way different than a lady's version of fun

 

[WestKentucky]

My down load work took me to 115gr truncated cone 9mm cast bullets in 38 spl cases with 2.2 gr 231. It's WEAK, but it works well...but my gun has a true .357 barrel. Even the least bit oversized barrel will give you bad results by jumping down in size.

Don't use my data without serious ddown-load-laddering.if you jump to .356 or .357 cast lead then watch for leading in the bore.

 

[joneb]

I'm want to load some real light loads for the wife's 38 snubbie

I will assume this is a fixed sight revolver? that has its sights regulated for a specific load. Well you may have your work cut out for you if you want the gun to shoot to POA.

 

[JamieC]

We are trying to come up with a load so she can keep the snubbie as a carry piece, tough to practice a lot with good loads. We put a Crimson Trace laser on, the one with the larger grip. Absorbed a lot of recoil, added more length to the gun, causing her to overgrip it, wrapping her hand further around than it should be. She is 4' 11", 100lbs. She went back to the stock grips, better shooting but harder on the hand/wrist. The larger grip is easier on the hand, the wrist, not as much since it's not as much in line with the arm. She is considering a S&W Shield, just tried out one of my daughter's Shield.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

IMHO you may be asking for more time and trouble than it's worth using Cast bullets. I love them, don't get me wrong but if your trying to get a much lighter load then you run the risk of leading up the barrel (if those are not some good soft bullets). If you start to lead the barrel then get you some plated rounds and make you some bunny poots so your not scrubbing a gun barrel every time you go plinking.

 

[wally247]

148 gr Wadcutters and Trail Boss. It's like shooting a .22

 

[au_prospector]

felt recoil

This is a really good question, one with many factors to consider. I would first ask you which revolver your wife is shooting. Felt recoil has many variables, both in regards to physics and shooting technique. Let me list some common ones.

1) The firearm itself ~ its mass.
2) Shape of the firearm.
3) Type of grip on the firearm ~ wood, plastic, rubber, padded.
4) The bullet exiting the muzzle ~ its mass.
5) The mass of the propellant used.
6) Velocity of both the propellant and the bullet exiting the muzzle.
7) Stance of the shooter.
8) Grip of the shooter.
9) Mass of the shooter.
10) Wearing a shooting glove?

There are others I am sure, but these I thought of quickly. As you can see, you are attempting to address only two of these many factors involved which will likely give you results that disappoint.

If you only address the bullet and the propellant I would say this. Newton's third law applies here all else being equal. The force exiting the barrel of your snubbie will equal the force exerted on the shooter (your wife). So it goes a lighter bullet with a light charge makes sense. The charge weight of most .38 loads is very small so focus on the bullet and try 125 grainers with a starting load of bullseye from your manual.

You may have more success and make your wife happier if you focus on the firearm, her grip and her stance.

The firearm. What are you using? For example I have both a Colt Detective Special and a S&W 442. My wife will no longer even try the 442, and I myself dont shoot it much either. She adores the Detective Special and will shoot 158 grain plated Berry's all day long and so do I. Why? Newton's 1st law kind of applies here. The mass of the Detective Special is nearly 150% that of the 442. 21 ounces compared to 15 ounces. The lighter firearm simply transfers greater energy into your hands and body compared to the heavier revolver.

Lastly the stance is important, and you guessed it Newton has a law for that too. Newton's 2nd is about acceleration and vectors which applies to the angles of a shooters stance. When I am shooting my 442 I have to make sure of my stance, distribute my weight, lean forward a touch and bear down as I pull the trigger. If I loosey goosey it and dont pay attention, I get beat up and my shots are inaccurate. I rarely carry this firearm because of that and the Detective Special is in my wife's nightstand as well.

There you go! I am sure others will beat me up over this thread, but I believe in physics and I know from experience. Trying to load up uber light loads of .38 special will frustrate you more than you can achieve by having her use a heavier firearm and adjusting her grip and stance.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Why reduce the .38 Special to where it's useless because of recoil? Why not go to something with less recoil and probably a more effective bullet?

We are trying to come up with a load so she can keep the snubbie as a carry piece, tough to practice a lot with good loads. We put a Crimson Trace laser on, the one with the larger grip. Absorbed a lot of recoil, added more length to the gun, causing her to overgrip it, wrapping her hand further around than it should be. She is 4' 11", 100lbs. She went back to the stock grips, better shooting but harder on the hand/wrist. The larger grip is easier on the hand, the wrist, not as much since it's not as much in line with the arm. She is considering a S&W Shield, just tried out one of my daughter's Shield.

That's what I'm talking about. If you use those very light loads for carry they may not do a good job stopping the attack if she ever needs to shoot. You might think about a different cartridge but IMO the 9mm Shield is not a good choice. If a .38 Special is generating too much felt recoil the very light 9mm will be much worse.

You might think about buying a .327 Federal Magnum revolver and see if .32 H&R Magnum ammo will be good for her to carry. I think that might be the answer. There is nothing wrong with having a 6th round either...

 

[Sunray]

"...I'll load 'down' till..." Do not go below published minimum loads. Below minimum loads can be as dangerous as above max loads. Causes weird pressures and can detonate the powder vs burn it. Read the reference chapters of your manual.
Alliant shows a 125 grain cowboy load that might do, but no Bullseye loads for anything but HBWC's.
"...9mm cast bullets..." Wrong diameter for .38 Special. Be at least 2 thou undersize.

 

[JamieC]

That's what I'm talking about. If you use those very light loads for carry they may not do a good job stopping the attack if she ever needs to shoot. You might think about a different cartridge but IMO the 9mm Shield is not a good choice. If a .38 Special is generating too much felt recoil the very light 9mm will be much worse.

You might think about buying a .327 Federal Magnum revolver and see if .32 H&R Magnum ammo will be good for her to carry. I think that might be the answer. There is nothing wrong with having a 6th round either...

These are not going to be carry rounds. They are specifically for practice, at the end of practice, load the Gold Dots back in, fire a couple just to remember. She doesn't really have a problem shooting the gun with the larger CT grip, it's just that it forces her to 'overgrip' the gun. It was noticed during a ladies advanced class recently. She's fine target shooting, during point shooting and with the gun inside a pocket book, she'd hit to the right. In the grand scheme of things, during a 'social encounter', up close and personal, it's probably not a big problem considering the range a snub nose will be used in. She has shot it with the CT for a couple of years. I'll make up some 'light' loads, not sure if I'll load light or heavy bullets, guess I'll have to have her try both, see which feels better. I'm hoping the heavier ones will work the best since they will probably shoot better POI.

 

[joneb]

I would give this a try https://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.htmllook at the 140gr RNFPBB 12 BHN
What is her GD carry load? Bullet weight?
If you could safely down load a 125gr low enough it may have a similar POI to a 135gr defense load ? I would be cautious down loading below published data, lead will be your best bet.

 

[Edarnold]

My wife does well with 3.2gr of 231 behind a 158gr LRN bullet, using a 12.5 ounce Colt Agent with Pachmyr grips. Upping the load to 3.5gr increases the recoil enough to be uncomfortable. The carry load would be a LHPSWC bullet of soft alloy (BHN 8), ahead of 4.5gr of 231. In the extreme I don't think the extra recoil would be noticed.

 

[murf]

try shooting gloves for practice.

murf

 

[joneb]

try shooting gloves for practice.

That's a great idea I like these for the excellent dexterity, http://www.statelinetack.com/item/a...ferralID=417627c7-b335-11e4-8635-001b2166becc

 

[JamieC]

The lightest load I could come up with was 2.6gr. I also loaded some at 2.8gr, 10 each. 125gr LSWC, 1.440", I'll try 'em out this weekend, see how we like them.

 

[Potatohead]

If faster powders lend themselves to softer loads, why do I love the slow 9mm powders and their gentle push with 147s then?
Or is it fast powder + light bullets= softer loads, and not necessarily just small doses of fast powders=soft loads?
(Always possible that with the recoil, Im misinterpreting/not identifying it correctly)


Hopefully that wont move us into the temperature vs wind chill-like, "actual vs perceived recoil" area..I'll get dizzy from my head spinning.

 

[JamieC]

If faster powders lend themselves to softer loads, why do I love the slow 9mm powders and their gentle push with 147s then?
Or is it fast powder + light bullets= softer loads, and not necessarily just small doses of fast powders=soft loads?
(Always possible that with the recoil, Im misinterpreting/not identifying it correctly)


Hopefully that wont move us into the temperature vs wind chill-like, "actual vs perceived recoil" area..I'll get dizzy from my head spinning.

That is/was the initial question I had, what would get us the least amount of recoil, heavy or light bullets? I'm glad to see I'm not alone. If the loads I've worked up work well, I'll get some bullets at both ends, (weight wise), and compare. I'll use Bayou Bullets to avoid any leading that the plain lead ones I have now might cause at these low power levels. I had sent this same basic question to Donnie @ Bayou, he also suggested trying both. Looks like I'll be looking for some different powder, Trail Boss has been recommended for light load, lead bullets. She still wants to get the Shield...women!

 

[Blue68f100]

If faster powders lend themselves to softer loads, why do I love the slow 9mm powders and their gentle push with 147s then?
Or is it fast powder + light bullets= softer loads, and not necessarily just small doses of fast powders=soft loads?
(Always possible that with the recoil, Im misinterpreting/not identifying it correctly)


Hopefully that wont move us into the temperature vs wind chill-like, "actual vs perceived recoil" area..I'll get dizzy from my head spinning.

Slow burn powders with heavy bullets normally have more of a push than a snap like a fast burn powder. I use both, fast powders for reduced BE loads (works the slide action better than a slow powder) and slower powders to push the heavy bullet hard. Now you can push a light bullet fast with a fast powder but your upper end is capped. And some fast powders burn very clean at reduced loads. While most medium burn powders will not burn clean till the upper end.

It all gets down to how the pressure spike peaks.

The preferred fast powder I use is WST, it burns 10x cleaner than BE at reduced loads.

 

[JamieC]

Blue68f100, what would you recommend for my wife's 442? I like the idea of heavier bullets, I'm ASSuming they will shoot to POA better than light bullets...but, at reduced power, won't they actually shoot higher as they will be in the barrel longer? Would 125-135gr, reduced load be a decent compromise? I guess the burn rate of whatever powder I use figures in also. Are we having fun yet??

 

[BCRider]

From my own reloading I found that for a given power level heavier has a less shocky recoil than lighter. But if you're loading to reduce recoil then a small charge with a light bullet will give less recoil than with a heavy bullet.

Cowboy action loads support this.

I used to think the burn rate mattered too. But really they are all so fast that the burn rate only figures into how fast and high a pressure peak you get. To our hands they all feel the same until you go to something radically slower like the feel I get going from smokeless to black powder.

If you're looking for a good load that won't startle I'd also suggest cast bullets to give a little more accuracy potential. A common cowboy action load is a 130gn cast lead round moving at around 600fps. This is light but still a little more kick than a .22LR. And of course there's the classic 148gn HBWC pushed by the classic 2.7 to 2.9gns of Bullseye. The 130gn bullet recoils even more softly though if pushed by that same 2.8'ish grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

 

[Potatohead]

Interesting topic for me. Thanks.