practical .380 use?

[oldfool]

lookee here, 200 post count thread...
Congratulations to all who put such extreme effort into it !

as usual, I find myself in agreement w/ Agostini, again
#190
"As to 1st draws and .20 splits ... I recall doing better than that."
I don't doubt it a bit
never said 1.00/0.20 was A class, nor a match winner, you know
just figured it was probably acceptable to friend David, as a benchmark for all us delusional joe-average folks, you know
likewise a big thumbs up on post #194

"As to drills, I asked for input or other ideas. old fool has not posted any alternatives."
sure I did, just not in this thread

I shoot rifles also
some folks use a chrony, it is a real useful tool for some, relevant to what they do, and why they do it
I don't have one because I don't need one, it's just not my thing
I don't tell others they don't want or need one, I obviously don't disparage others who don't want or need one

shot timers - essential tool if training for speed competition (IPSC/IDPA, CAS/SASS, etc.)
useful for tactical trainers
useful, or maybe not, for others
I don't have one because I don't need one, it's just not my thing
unless you are pretty certain you can already do aforementioned 1.00/0.20, you probably don't really need one either
but it's ok, if you want one anyway

me, I am pretty sure I can do 6 in 2, or 3 DT's in 3
(dry fire w/ a pulse laser, or live ammo on range, 22 rimfire, or WMR, or 380, or 357)
No need of 0.1 second precision required, much less 0.01 precision, to know that. Also certain beyond doubt, I will never get significantly better than that, shot timer or no, tactical trainer or no (shaky hands, accuracy goes to hell, letting the shot go when sight picture is "there" is good, but only goes just so far, even in point shooting, there is still a "sight picture" involved)

as for those who "can do", yes there is a reason for the longevity and popularity of the 1911 (it's called SA trigger)

if you compete against others and/or a clock, get a shot timer
if you compete only against yourself, you probably don't need one
me, I am pretty sure I know when having a good day and doing better, or a bad day and doing worse, no shot timer required. I know my own slow (pretend quick) shot rhythm, and I see where the shots are going against a reactive backdrop, instantaneous feedback

then again, I just might be a little delusional
must be some truth in that, because I choose to CCW a 1911 type action in 380acp

luckily for me, this ain't Dodge, because I ain't Bill Hickcock

 

[pockets]

Wow....this bit of fluff thread is still going on?

 

[shootr]

Guess so. This sort of topic never fails to generate some amusing replies too!

 

[The Tomcat]

I think .380's are great! Considering the closeness of most defensive shots I think the round is just fine.

Some of my .380's
Kel-Tec P3AT

Llama Micromax

Bersa 383A

 

[christcorp]

I still have 2 positions on this topic. The 380 is most definitely a satisfactory caliber for self defense. Especially for concealed carry. So, no arguments there.

However, on the other side of the coin, with today's prices of 380 ammo and the rare availability, it makes absolutely no sense to buy a 380. If you already have one, great. If you don't own one and are looking for a gun and caliber, the 380 is a terrible choice. Size is not an issue, because you can get 9mm makarove pistols in sizes as small as the 380. And with price of ammo being 1/3rd that of a 380, it's the better choice. It's also not much more on recoil than the 380. Also, there are now 9mm pistols that are small enough. And the price is about the same as the makarov, which is 1/3rd that of a 380. But I do understand that a 9mm might be a little too much for a small gun and for the person shooting it. But the 9mm makarov isn't too much to shoot. It's almost identical to the 380.

So, while I think the 380 is a satisfactory round, if you didn't already own one, it would be really silly to buy one because of the price and availability of ammo.

 

[FLAvalanche]

The availability and price of .380 is turning around. I can go to my favorite gun shop and he's got plenty at about $15 a box.

Shoot Straight had a fort built out of CASES of .380 in their showroom in Ft. Myers. Price was about $20 a box which is about what Bass Pro is selling 9mm for.

 

[christcorp]

What one place sells for vs another, is not a good indicator. I.e. Just because bass pro sells 9mm for $20 a box, doesn't mean that 380 prices at $20 a box are good. The going price for 9mm is around $10-$11. That can be found at those prices in MANY places. The going price for 380 is $18-$22; with very FEW below that, but still quite a few above that. If someone is thinking of buying a gun, that a 380 would normally be the right caliber for, I will continue to advise them to buy a 9mm luger or a 9mm makarov chambered pistol. There is still a significant difference in price. And online prices are the standard that you have to use, because that's the common denominator for anyone talking on the internet.

If you can buy 380 ammo at $15 a box, and you plan on buying say 20 boxes of it, so you will have enough to last you, then buying a 380 pistol might not be a bad deal. If you plan on buying 2-3 boxes, and believing that you will be able to get that same $15 380 ammo locally any time you want it in the future, then that's a risk. When the online sources start showing 380 ammo at $15 a box; (currently the low is around $17-$18;
http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/.380_ACP ) and it's consistently available, then maybe I'll change my tune. But for now, 380 is a fine caliber if you already shoot it. If you're really into reloading; which I'm not - I've gone beyond that phase of my life; then 380 is a viable option. If you're looking for a new gun and caliber, and you're not reloading, then 380 is not a smart choice. The 9mm luger and 9mm makarov are better choices. Price and availability.

 

[EMC45]

I get my .380 ammo for about 2 bucks a box of 50. (reloads) I also cast bullets so I have an endless supply of bullets. And yes I would shoot someone with my hand loads. Without hesitation!

 

[HB]

As long as it can penetrate to the vitals, I think its viable. I see no problem with a .380 especially in the smaller pistols. No handgun round is powerful until you get into the 44 mag and up levels.

 

[augustino]

I had a Beretta model 70 380 and liked it. But I was/am concerned about stopping power of the 380. So I looked around and finally bought a model 30 Glock in 45ACP. I'm just as accurate with the 30 as I am with the 380. I also bought a model 19 Glock in 9MM. I'm as accurate with it as with any pistol EXCEPT my HK P7 M8. With the P7 I can drive tacks but I have shot it once, cleaned it up and put it up! It lives in my safe. So now I carry either the Glock 19 or 30. By the way I traded the 380 because the ammo is hard to find, quite expensive and the Model 12 Winchester 12 gauge pump I got for it I simply could NOT refuse.

 

[Weevil]

Yeah .380 it's going for $20 a box of 50 but I can remember not so long ago I could get a box of 100 rounds of 9mm at Wally-World for under $10 and now that same box of ammo is $23.

The cheapest I ever remember buying .380 over the last few years before the Obama panic, was $9 for Blazer and the normal price was around $15 give or take a dollar or two.

So actually even at $20 a box the price of .380 hasn't gone up as much as 9mm has.

As to availabilty locally almost no one has it including Wally-World except for two stores. One's a gun store that has lots, WWB, Federal AE,and some Independence brand. All around $20. And a sporting goods store that has Magtech for $26 a box but nobody seems to be buying that, I know I'm not.

Oh eventually supply will catch up with demand.

 

[oldfool]

retail ammo panic pricing has been hard on all of us, all calibers
even 22 rimfire is now near 4 cents a round, and bargain prices on 38+p or 357 are mighty rare these days
it is starting to turn around, but never will be back to where it was a couple years ago any caliber
don't plan on ever seeing $2 a gallon gasoline again, either

9mm always has been cheapest centerfire handgun ammo, always will be as long as the military is buying it, how it is, undisputed

the panic buyers and 1st time buyers are settling down, and 380 retail prices are coming back around to being proportionate with what other calibers are selling for
all things considered, the cost and availability of a brick of 22 rimfire is a pretty good benchmark for relative ammo pricing, I used to get 50 rounds of 380 for about same as a brick of 22, and still do
when 22 rimfire gets scarce, it all gets scarce, even 9mm (except maybe 40S&W that is)
there was about a year and a half I never bought a single round of ammo from wallyworld, but never ran out of any caliber I own, and never paid gouge prices on any of it, and never bought full cases either

most of us own multiple calibers anyway, not like anybody is being left helpless, no matter what wallyworld does or doesn't have on the shelf
just because I prefer 380 for carry doesn't mean I can't shoot my 9

time and tide

 

[nitetrane98]

Regarding the dearth of .380 ammo as a reason not to buy one. I don't carry my BDA ,380 because I carry a 10mm. But believe it or not, I actually would carry it. But that's not the point I want to make.

I have handguns in almost every caliber except .44 magnum. Some are more accurate than others. Based upon what I can do with the BDA at 10 yds from a rest, I can easily see that it is highly unlikely that in my hands it will ever be much more than adequately accurate for SD work regardless of how many rounds I send downrange. It will never be a favorite plinking gun. I have other guns that will reward my time and money spent much better.

Accepting this, I only have a couple hundred rounds laid in and don't sweat it if I can't find any regularly. I catch a box a WM occasionally and it's enough to allow me burn up a little .380 when the fancy strikes. Now 10mm, .45acp, .40S&W and .357, that's another story.

Of course I can understand the angst over .380 ammo being in short supply for those who intend to make their .380 their go to gun.

 

[bikerdoc]

Plenty of good 380 ammo at The Armory.com

How do I know - I ship it out

 

[dogtown tom]

christcorp: ...Size is not an issue, because you can get 9mm makarove pistols in sizes as small as the 380...

Whut?

I've yet to see ANY pistol in 9mmMak that's anywhere close to the size or weight of a Ruger LCP, Kahr P380 or KelTec P3at.
As a matter of fact, most pistols in 9mmMak are twice the weight of those three .380's.



.

 

[christcorp]

Whut?

I've yet to see ANY pistol in 9mmMak that's anywhere close to the size or weight of a Ruger LCP, Kahr P380 or KelTec P3at.
As a matter of fact, most pistols in 9mmMak are twice the weight of those three .380's.



.

So which is it? Size or Weight. I consider guns to be into certain classes. If you want to say that the LCP is lighter and smaller than say a P64, then you are definitely correct. If you want to tell me that the LCP is "Significantly" smaller than the P64 and that it has some carrying advantages over the P64, then I'd say you're rationalizing. If you think a 5.16" length is significantly better than a 6.3", then there's no sense of discussing. It's obviously so personal that it's a good enough reason to not like one. That's cool.

But my opinion stands. If you don't have a 380 yet, or have one but are having a difficult time shooting it because of ammo price and availability, then the 9x18 makarov chambered guns are a great alternative. For what you'd spend on 20 boxes of 380 (1000 rounds), you can buy the same amount of 9x18 ammo AND a P64 or PA63. I have no problem carrying a P64 in my front jeans pocket. Sometimes in my jean jacket pocket. Point is, for it's purpose, I can do anything with it that an LCP or other small 380 can do. If you want to get down to the ounce or similar, then fine, keep shooting the 380.

 

[daehawc]

due to slow internet on gov computers i did not read all the posts so far but here's my take...

I tend to subscribe to jeff coopers theory of "carry the largest gun in the largest caliber that you can shoot effectively." for me thats a 1911 in .45.

That being said, one of my favorite pistols is a sig p238. its a small, lightweight .380 colt mustang knock off that shoots amazingly well, has great sights and has controls identical to my 1911's.

From my research, the critical defense ammo is performing almost identically in .380 as it is in 9mm as far as penetration / expansion. If i could find some and test it I would likely carry that. As it stands right now I stoke mine with FMJ because I know it feeds 100% and I can actually find and practice with it.

Additionally, last time i researched it, most hollow points required about 1000fps to reliably expand (again, some of the newer tech like the critical defense may change this). For that reason and because I'm looking for reliability and penetration in the .380 I've been happy with FMJ.

I think .380 is a great round for SD in that you can carry a gun in a much smaller size that dissapears in your pocket for those time when you absolutly can not carry anything larger. 1st rule of gun fighting is to have a gun, the .380 in the p238 makes this possible anytime i have a pocket.

Are there better rounds and cheaper ammo? Definately. Does the .380 have its place? To me, it does. I do not carry 9mm's because if I am dressed to where I can conceal most 9mm's then I can conceal a .45. Otherwise I go with the .380 with a decent single action trigger and great sights of the p238. Of all the pocket guns I've owned, this is the only one I've kept. Most others lack any sort of decent sights and triggers to make them effective past contact distances.

FWIW, I shot a stage in my recent USPSA match using the P238 and the gun performed amazingly well. I was able to make quick A zone hits in all my targets out to 20 yards no problem. As far as stopping power, if its all I have, it will do the job but then again I'm going to hit the target with as many rounds as I have until the threat stops. Thats SOP for any caliber.

 

[Charles Davis]

You should pick a handgun/caliber combination that you will likely carry because it is compact. A big banger in your closet is no help on the street.
You should also carry as much stopping power as you can shoot accurately.
The FBI states that you need at least 400 ft/lbs of energy to stop a determined attacker. Our American solders found this out the hard way during the Philippine insurrection. They were attacked by Moro machete armed warriors. Our solders were not able to stop them with their issue .38 handguns before the warriors chopped of their heads. Ever hear of the leathernecks? Our marines wore leather collars to protect themselves. Our army went to .45 calibers (approx 400 ft/lbs of energy. Note that the little .380 has significantly less energy the .38 referenced above.
Once you pick up a suitable carry gun, select a good everyday carry system for you.
Some ideas, a Tactical shooting vest like a 5.11, a good Fanny pack, a real neat carry tool is Thunderwear. Check out http://www.thunderwearholsters.com/

 

[MCgunner]

So which is it? Size or Weight. I consider guns to be into certain classes. If you want to say that the LCP is lighter and smaller than say a P64, then you are definitely correct. If you want to tell me that the LCP is "Significantly" smaller than the P64 and that it has some carrying advantages over the P64, then I'd say you're rationalizing. If you think a 5.16" length is significantly better than a 6.3", then there's no sense of discussing. It's obviously so personal that it's a good enough reason to not like one. That's cool.

But my opinion stands. If you don't have a 380 yet, or have one but are having a difficult time shooting it because of ammo price and availability, then the 9x18 makarov chambered guns are a great alternative. For what you'd spend on 20 boxes of 380 (1000 rounds), you can buy the same amount of 9x18 ammo AND a P64 or PA63. I have no problem carrying a P64 in my front jeans pocket. Sometimes in my jean jacket pocket. Point is, for it's purpose, I can do anything with it that an LCP or other small 380 can do. If you want to get down to the ounce or similar, then fine, keep shooting the 380.

I know the LCPs are light and small. Actually, I was really thinkin' about getting a TCP and, actually, still am! Not sure how much I'd carry it. I have dies and a mold for .380, but even getting brass is a pain now days. I find a little at the range now and then. I have an old Grendel P12 that's as small, only thinker, 1" thick, due to a double stack 11 round capacity magazine. My new P64 is flatter, as flat as the little .380s, and pockets well. Yeah, it's all steal and heavier. It's more a match (only slightly longer) to a PPK than an LCP. It's one HELLA accurate, though! I sincerely doubt that any of the micro .380s can match its 3" at 25 yards accuracy, perhaps, don't know 'cause I haven't played with any of 'em.

I own and like very much a Kel Tec P11, only slightly bigger than my old Grendel and 11 rounds of 9x19+P (115 JHP at 1263 fps/410 ft lbs) on tap and also more accurate than that gun. My .380 shoots about 6-8" at 25, my 9 3.5", these being bench rested groups to test the actual accuracy of the gun.

I find I shoot the P11 and especially the little P64 much better than I do that Grendel. I'm not sure what a LCP or TCP would be like off hand practical accuracy, but I find it hard to believe it could be better than that little P64 which is one of the MOST easily accurate practical accuracy guns I've ever owned in a pocket gun. It's simply amazing and that accuracy gives me confidence to carry it even though it's in a less than powerful caliber, pretty much a glorified .380.

The little .380s fill a niche for some and if I had a restrictive dress code, I might want one anyway. But, I've chilled on the .380 once again. I don't think I'd ever carry one. I never carry that Grendel. It's the same size length and height, again, as the LCP. It's 12 ounces unloaded a 1" thick. I do like the firepower, but I just shoot the little P64 LOTS better and the Kel Tec P11 is the obvious choice being very accurate, shootable, and in a superior caliber and with firepower to boot! Truth be told, though I'm carrying the P64 a lot lately cause I'm still infatuated with it, of all my pocket choice, the P11 wins hands down. If I bought a PF9, I'd have a 12 ounce gun as flat as the P64 and about the same physical size. Id probably be better off getting a PF9 than a TCP or LCP, way I look at it.

Everyone must decide these things for themselves. The little .380s are very popular, so obviously few out there tend to think like I do. I mean, I still think about getting one now and then. You can't have too many choices for carry, too many guns, after all. That phrase "too many guns" just does not make logical sense. Hell, I've even convinced my wife of that over the years, either that, or she just flat gave up.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

Ever heard of the term letherneck?

Going to take a guess that your not a Marine.
The term “Leatherneck ” is one of many slang terms for Marines but few people know of its orgins. This term came into being because it referred to the high leather collar which used to be issued to British and American Marines.

One rumor about the purpose of this collar was that it was issued to Marines to protect the neck from sword blows. It was a 3and1/2 inch collar which fastened at the back. The true story behind this leather collar is that its purpose was to keep the head straight and erect thus improving military bearing.

 

[MCgunner]

You should pick a handgun/caliber combination that you will likely carry because it is compact. A big banger in your closet is no help on the street.
You should also carry as much stopping power as you can shoot accurately.
The FBI states that you need at least 400 ft/lbs of energy to stop a determined attacker. Our American solders found this out the hard way during the Philippine insurrection. They were attacked by Moro machete armed warriors. Our solders were not able to stop them with their issue .38 handguns before the warriors chopped of their heads. Ever hear of the leathernecks? Our marines wore leather collars to protect themselves. Our army went to .45 calibers (approx 400 ft/lbs of energy. Note that the little .380 has significantly less energy the .38 referenced above.
Once you pick up a suitable carry gun, select a good everyday carry system for you.
Some ideas, a Tactical shooting vest like a 5.11, a good Fanny pack, a real neat carry tool is Thunderwear. Check out http://www.thunderwearholsters.com/
__________________

The Philippine issurection thing is not comparable to modern JHP loads that make the same energy levels. At these energy levels, energy really isn't significant in wounding, anyway. A bullet like Hornady's Critical Defense that opens and penetrates is the answer. The one thing I find the .380 desirable for over the previously mentioned Makarov caliber is that there's better defense ammo advertised, if not always available, for .380. I carry Silver Bear JHP in 9x18, but penetration tests I've seen on it don't match Hornady's critical defense. BUT, that gun is so good, I can put 2 rounds in the same spot in the time I can put one there with my old Grendel.

Anyway, just forget about the Philippine insurrection in caliber discussions. it does not relate.

Also, thunderwear sux. I bought one, it's slow. If you're seated, driving, whatever, just forget about it and give up. The ONLY CARRY METHOD I find that works for me to allow me to be armed 24/7 is pocket carry. IWB sucks, thunderwear sux, I cannot wear anything, but a T shirt 10 months of the year down here so forget any coats are vests. Hell, if I didn't hunt, I wouldn't even need to OWN a coat in south Texas. YMMV

Nope, the only carry that's good for me is pocket carry and a little 9 like my P11 is like carrying a duty weapon in my pocket, anyway. So, that's what I've settled on. If you live and work on the north slope, go for a 1911.

 

[pockets]

Yep, the term 'Leatherneck' predates the Philippine–American War by about a century and has nothing to do with Moro machetes.
1798: "one stock of black leather and clasp" was issued to each U. S. Marine annually.
.

 

[sonier]

I feel like this thread is beating a dead dog lol

 

[christcorp]

I don't worry about how much energy a pistol has. That's just a mathematical formula. And MATH can't kill people. What I care about is that the bullet I am shooting at a person, has the capability of penetrating at least 12". And with today's ammo, a 380 can easily reach 12". Usually closer to the 15-16" range. Even the 32acp, with the right ammo, can get the 13-15" range. That is what I care about. And if a person still wants to say that a 32acp or 380acp is not effective, then I really don't care what they say. Granted, I don't normally use Hollow Points on a 32 or 380. (Except for certain brands). And I don't normally carry those 2 calibers in the colder months when most people are layered with a lot of clothing/coats. But for the spring/summer periods when the perspective target is most likely wearing just a shirt, and/or a light jacket, I have absolutely no problem carrying the 32 or 380. If people want to quote the FBI, and the FBI says they recommend at least 12"; and the 32 and 380 can do that; they can't change their minds on the FBI recommendations just because the numbers don't support their argument.

Now, 70% of the time, I carry the 9mm makarov caliber. Hollow points are close to the 12" and FMJ have a lot more penetration. That is my primary carry gun/caliber. But about 20% I carry my 45acp Sig P220. Especially in the coldest of winter months when people are layered with the most clothing. Could I carry this in the summer? Yes, but why? I don't need to. Yes, if I could only own 1 gun, it would probably be the 45acp or 357 magnum. But I'm fortunate that I can own all the guns and calibers that I want to. Therefor, I can also carry a 9mm mak, 380, or 32, and when used properly, they can all be effective.

 

[Ledgehammer]

Well Im no ballistics expert, but I can tell you guys this from first hand experience. My best friend was shot with a .380 from about 3-4 ft away. We were in my garage at the time. The bullet was jhp and it went all the way through him a can of tomato soup and stuck in the wall on the opposite side of the garage. We were 14 at the time and he was a bigger kid probably about 180 lbs. It didn't put him down at all. The shock did though. He was thoroughly messed up inside from the shot. Missed his spine by an inch they said.

So obviously penetration is adequate, but you will most likely need follow up shots. I carry a p32 as my back up and feel very confident it can back somebody off of me. I much rather have something bigger - but I will probably go for the pelvis and head with the smaller calibers.